Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
TheElementsSong · 17/07/2018 17:19

Remember all those questions we had to answer about what percentage of people in the UK came from immigrant backgrounds, and how incredibly low the numbers are?

Yes, I remember memorising all those!

Just think, if Britons had to pass the Life in the UK test UKIP wouldn't have got anywhere.

It's become pretty damn clear to me, from reading Leavers' output on social media, that many of them utterly lack any depth of understanding of the historical, social, economic and political workings of their own allegedly-oh-so-precious ancestral homeland. I'd propose that all UK residents be required to pass the Life in the UK test as part of school-leaving qualifications.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 17:21

Just think, if Britons had to pass the Life in the UK test UKIP wouldn't have got anywhere.

I disagree.

We've seen time and time again (on these very threads) that even when Brexiteers are confronted with facts (and that's a struggle, since they only like "their" facts) they just namechange and come back with the same old shit.

Brexiteering has nothing whatsoever to do with reality. It's all about people who feel they are right in life. Going back to the last time England saw this level of divide, it was over whether the wafer really became the body of Christ, or was a metaphor.

Has anyone suggested a petition that Davide Cameron never receives any form of honour while he lives (or posthumously) ? The Romans had the right idea with Damnatio memoriae ....

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:24

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes

We’re approaching the key customs vote at around 6pm. Some worrying the government will find a way of ensuring it gets too late and there’s no time to vote on it (! - mayhem).

But opposition and Tory rebels working together to speed business up to stop this happening

The speaker just said something about a member not vacating the division lobby. I have no idea what it was about.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 17:24

It's become pretty damn clear to me, from reading Leavers' output on social media, that many of them utterly lack any depth of understanding of the historical, social, economic and political workings of their own allegedly-oh-so-precious ancestral homeland.

Which is not an accident, by the way. I won't even bother to look, but I bet one of the cheerleaders for Nazism said something about control the schools, you control the country.

And the English seem to take a perverse pride in being uneducated. Which I wrote ages ago conferred an immunity from extremism. But, like water flowing downhill, evil finds a way.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:26

Jim Pickard @PickardJE
rumours of at least one more pro-EU minister resigning today, I can't guarantee you'll have heard of him or her

OP posts:
Yaralie · 17/07/2018 17:26

I agree DGR. How many other countries have an expression like "too clever by half" which is used as an insult and a way of dismissing knowledge?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:30

PARLY @ParlyApp
A member is being exhorted to remove himself from the division lobby and the result of the vote will be delivered very soon says Mr Speaker

What does this even mean?

Why? Who?

OP posts:
placemats · 17/07/2018 17:30

Has the vote to bring forward Parliamentary summer recess been delayed until tomorrow?

Well done Sarah Wollaston for speaking out!

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:32

Here's Tom Watson at the Labour NEC today.

Apparently last night he couldn't vote cos he was in hospital.

I'm glad he's had a speedy recovery.

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Tom Watson told the meeting: "Are we serious about winning a general election? Are we serious about dealing with anti-Semitism? We need to grip this issue and close it down. The people who will judge us on this are the Jewish community and rightly so."

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/96937/row-erupts-labour-refuses-adopt-internationally

Nice to see where priorities lie.

Also, Labour rejected the International Definition of Anti-semitism, cos they know better than everyone else internationally.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:33

Yes and that has been the REAL issue with Brexit.
That democracy has disappeared befire our eyes and no one said anything.

Which brings me to my point about civil unrest and martial law.

Trump is looking for a situation where he can use it; particularly involving blacks. This is one of the reasons there has been so much focus on peaceful protest. Its been holding so far. But as frustration creeps in and Trump continues to infringe on rights and liberties, at some point that will start to be tested.

In the UK we are headed towards a situation in which there might be a real chance of civil unrest if there is a shortage of medical supplies or food or other essential supplies (maybe petrol). This raises the question of what happens. How do the government control the situation. What liberties are suspended, for how long and under what powers.

The executive have the power to do this in an emergency on a short term basis. The Withdrawal Act and the Henry VIII powers could in theory make it easier to prolong any such situation with little any opposition could do.

Turkey is just about to end its current state of emergency which allowed Erdogan to consolidate power, purge instutitions and destroy the media.

You have to wonder what would happen to social media in such circumstances (including MN). In such circumstances its generally heavily monitored and restricted.

The one flaw within this for the UK (perhaps unlike the US), is that we are so poorly organised is we potentially don't have the manpower with the military nor the security services to do this. So the government would have to scare us somehow into believing they do.

My worry is that the lack of manpower would mean that they would have be harsh and they would have to make examples of people in a big way.

Something which, in itself, would come at a great shock to us as a country.

Well perhaps unless you are from NI.

OP posts:
woman11017 · 17/07/2018 17:36

Yup red thanks for writing that.
And here we go......................

@Lucian_Kim
Breaking: Russian MoD says in statement that it's ready to implement agreement on international security Putin and Trump reached in Helsinki.

Russian MoD says it's "ready to activate contacts with US colleagues via general staffs and other existing communication channels to discuss extending Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, cooperation in Syria, other current issues of ensuring military security."

placemats · 17/07/2018 17:39

Well with suggestions like delivering electricity for those in Northern Ireland via ships in the Irish Sea, one has to be very worried. Remember, Northern Ireland has no mainland gas. Most people use oil to heat their homes.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 17:42

@RTB

You realise you've just summarised the plot of the last season of House of Cards Hmm

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:43

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
High drama in Commons: with minutes to go to the vote, Stephen Hammond refuses last minute Govt compromise offer of a Lords amendment for a "customs arrangement" backstop. Instead, insists Govt must accept NC18 and water it down later.

Nothing more to lose...
...May has nothing left to offer.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 17:43

The one flaw within this for the UK (perhaps unlike the US), is that we are so poorly organised is we potentially don't have the manpower with the military nor the security services to do this. So the government would have to scare us somehow into believing they do.

Yes poetic justice for "austerity" ...

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 17:44

Stitch up coming:

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
Govt climbdown? Minister Holingberry says intention to bring foward amendment in Lords.. that takes in intention of Morgan amendment but removes customs union reference.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:47

David Aaronovitch @DAaronovitch
Kate Hoey just now on @BBCRadio4 - I haven't read the Electoral Commission report but it's biased and written by Remainers.

FUCK OFF. JUST FUCK OFF.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:49

Justin Cohen @CohenJust
Breaking: @JewishLabour refers the NEC decision on antisemitism definition to @EHRC for investigation

Next week on Westministenders:
Labour come out in support for leaving the ECHR...

I no longer know the difference between satire and prediction.

OP posts:
woman11017 · 17/07/2018 17:51

@faisalislam
And a picture tells a thousand words - effective ERG Brexiter whip recently resigned Brexit minister Steve Baker confers with the Labour MPs who brought victory - Field and Hoey

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 17:51

Sky News Breaking @SkyNewsBreak
MPs have voted 314-284 against an amendment to the Trade Bill calling for all free trade deals after Brexit to be subject to Parliamentary scrutiny and consent

Ian Dunt @IanDunt
Simply incredible. MPs petrified into mouthing their support for parliament to take back control refuse to take back control.
What you're seeing here is not an error. It is a formal government strategy to prevent parliament scrutinising trade deals
Beforehand, we had a double-lock: MEPs to scrutinise EU trade deals and, more recently, member states with a veto. Post-Brexit, they're trying to avoid even having to show them to MPs.
Parliamentary sovereignty is as illusionary as the will of the people. In both cases it simply translates into more power for the executive.

Paging the HoL...

OP posts:
woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:01

@patrick_kidd
Chief whip trying to take Nicky Morgan and Sarah Wollaston out for a chat. They tell him to sod off with only three minutes left in debate

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:01

The important division has just been called.

Now we wait...

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:02

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
4m4 minutes ago
Julian Smith has been brought in to put thumbscrews on Tory remain rebels. Government worried

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:03

Ian Dunt @ iandunt
This can't hold. Tory MP Nicky Morgan trying to enlist Labour MPs to support the government's own negotiating strategy against its own wishes. It is utter nonsense.
It's like someone got a tanker full of pure undiluted nonsense, attached a hose to it and started pumping it into that room at terrible speed.
You can smell a general election. This set-up is just too absurd.

OP posts:
keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 18:04

A little light relief whilst we are waiting for the result of the vote.

twitter.com/ConorMcGinn/status/1019223657367916544?s=19