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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 18:31

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:33

Robert Peston @Peston
Government has lost amendment tabled by Rebel Remainers forcing government to in effect remain member of European Medicines Agency - it's all going badly for @theresa_may

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Yaralie · 17/07/2018 18:33

Good

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:34

NO ONE saw that one coming.

May has lost all authority.

GE or Leadership challenge seems inevitable now. It HAS to happen.

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 18:34

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:34

Phillip Lee, who resigned as a justice minister ahead of a crunch vote on the EU withdrawal bill, is speaking now. He has tabled his own amendment to the trade bill, new clause 17 (NC17), saying the government should have to negotiate “an international agreement through which the UK may continue to participate in the European medicines regulatory network partnership between the EU

The European medicines regulatory network partnership makes the process of accessing life saving new medicines and moving medicines quick and easy. If we leave that partnership the NHS would get ground breaking new drugs like those for cancer, dementia and diabetes long after other parts of the world

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:35

Steven Swinford @Steven_Swinford
So Philip Lee, a former minister who quit over Brexit, just defeated the Government with a rebel amendment that will keep Britain in the European Medicines Agency. It's not a big deal but it looks pretty dire for the Govt now over Customs Union amendment...

He's a doctor, it case you were not aware.

Doctor saves medicine.

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:35

Geoffrey Howe moment for Dr Lee.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 18:36

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:36

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
The next vote would seek to keep the UK in A customs union - like the tariff amendment yday, it would politically undermine govt negotiating strategy - one day PM's plan biffed by Eurosceptics, less than 24 hours later, another part of the plan knocked by former Remainers

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OlennasWimple · 17/07/2018 18:36

Stephen Hammond is the erstwhile Tory party deputy chairman, who resigned from the position when he was one of the rebels against the government's Brexit vote in Parliament at the end of last year

Labour NEC debating whether party should adopt International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism. Party leadership, Keith Vaz, Momentum and GMB among those opposed.

Hmmm, now why might the Labour leadership, Vaz, Momentum and the GMB oppose the definition.... Hmm

SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 18:37

Am eating an almond mini magnum to relieve the stress. I have up smoking over 15 years ago but I could do with a fag right now

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 18:37

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:37

Zach Brown @zachjourno
BREAKING: am told EU is going issue very strongly worded emergency guidelines tomorrow telling member states to immediately step up preparations for ‘No Deal’ Brexit. They might be watching Parliament right now...

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ThisIsHistory · 17/07/2018 18:37

Hippocratic Oath trumps party loyalty

TheElementsSong · 17/07/2018 18:38

If we leave that partnership the NHS would get ground breaking new drugs like those for cancer, dementia and diabetes long after other parts of the world

Surely Leavers fully understood that they were voting to lose access to cancer/diabetes/dementia/ drugs Hmm? Who are there elitist sneering traitors denying these True Patriots their Will to Show Their Faith by Dying in Agony? Eh? Eh?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:38

REsult incoming....

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 18:39

He might be a tory I'm jealous of the tories having Morgan, Soubrey and Woolaston too. And SNP for Cherry. And Lucas...........

ClashCityRocker · 17/07/2018 18:39

Well this has bloody opened my eyes to how decomacratic parliament isn't...

I think I've been very naive.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 18:39

I've found myself childless for a few hours so of course what would I do than switch BBC Parliament on.

Great about the EMA. Isn't this all a bit cherry picky though?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:40

Check out the wiki definition of classical liberal and the reference to 'social darwinism'.

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 18:40

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ConstantlyCold · 17/07/2018 18:40

I think I've been very naive

If it makes you feel better you aren’t the only one. Live these threads but it really shows up my lack of knowledge.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 18:40

I think there is some stuff about corn laws on there.

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ConstantlyCold · 17/07/2018 18:41

And I think you spell love as live Blush