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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Violetparis · 17/07/2018 15:45

I don't think people are blaming Lib Dems for the result of the vote but it looks dreadful that the leader of the party and former leader of the party don't even show up.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:46

Jim Pickard @PickardJE
New:
Electoral Commission tells me it wants to increase the maximum single fine it can impose from £20,000 to around £500,000 in line with ICO

www.ft.com/content/a8b848ce-8987-11e8-b18d-0181731a0340
Vote Leave fined and referred to police
Elections watchdog says it should have more powers to hand out bigger penalties

When your pockets are big you can take the fines and still do dodgy shit, whilst those who don't have the money have to stick to the rules and ensure they are doing things right.

Its not working. Bigger fines won't necessarily help to fix the problem either.

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DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 15:47

I don't think people are blaming Lib Dems for the result of the vote but it looks dreadful that the leader of the party and former leader of the party don't even show up

If you like your theories sinister, all the past year has shown - with an acceleration towards the end - is that parliament is an irrelevance, and it's bullying and government by press release are now the norm. Even the MPs aren't respecting it.

You'll never guess where that tactic first appeared.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 15:48

Not but maybe a sentence prison would....

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:48

Grant Tucker @GrantTucker
End of an era. Parliament’s Sports and Social bar to be renamed The Woolsack.

Is this the bar which is subsedised by the tax payer? And its getting refurbished?

and this is news on the same day the story is that May wants a longer holiday?

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 15:48

When your pockets are big you can take the fines and still do dodgy shit

Bit like the criminal law then ...

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:52

Conor McGinn MP @ConorMcGinn
Proof perhaps that most of the wit & wisdom in the House of Commons is to be found outside the Chamber... in this case on the 2nd floor of Portcullis House. I tip my hat to you sir/madam!

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:53

John Stevens @johnestevens
EXC: Boris Johnson has broken ministerial code twice with new Telegraph columnist job...
1) Code bans ex-Cabinet ministers from starting new roles in first three months after leaving office
2) He failed to consult Acoba before accepting appointment

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5962885/Boris-Johnson-breaks-rules-not-telling-authoritarians-Telegraph-column.html
Boris Johnson broke rules by failing to tell watchdog he is resuming £275,000-a-year newspaper column after quitting as Foreign Secretary

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BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 15:54

I swear, I want to lock everyone of these MPs up in the Tower of London until they learn to do some bloody reading or pay attention to whats going on around them.
There is no need fo ether to do that. Because no one will pick up the inconsistencies (bar a very few like you and others in this thread). So why bother?
Why bothering to read impact assessments or to understand what voting to x amendment actually means? They are voting according to the whip anyway. Or protecting their seats.

prettybird · 17/07/2018 15:56

it's bullying and government by press release are now the norm.

Viz briefing the journalists about the Chequers wishful thinking White Paper and "forgetting" Hmm to distribute it to the actual MPs HmmAngry

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:57

Press Association @PA
#Breaking Administrators to Poundworld are to close a further 40 stores, axing 531 jobs as a result

Its like a Tsunami of Shit isn't it?

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GingerPCatt · 17/07/2018 16:02

Am I being overly optimistic but does the trade bill amendment mean that (if passed) it will be soft Brexit? Unless another trade deal is agreed before the end of Jan 2019 which seems... unlikely.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 16:07

A lot of talk (which as previously noted, is cheap) about trade.

Nary a squeak on anyones rights. That is UK citizens in the EU, and vice versa.

Speaks volumes about priorities. And it ain't people.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 16:08

Oh look, here's Keith Vaz at the Labour NEC today. Arguing not to adopt the international definition of anti-semitism.

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Labour NEC debating whether party should adopt International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism. Party leadership, Keith Vaz, Momentum and GMB among those opposed. But Unison rep Keith Birch says Jewish community "will not trust us" if they don't.

He clearly hasn't been mugged by murderous goats who have been hijacking cars on the M1.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 16:12

Sky News Breaking @SkyNewsBreak
MPs have voted 314-284 against an amendment to the Trade Bill calling for all free trade deals after Brexit to be subject to Parliamentary scrutiny and consent

Lewis Goodall @lewis_goodall
Not a terrific day for parliamentary sovereignty. If this goes through we’ll revert to the 1924 Ponsonby rule where all the govt will have to do is notify the House of Commons and after 21 days the trade deal comes into force. In the US it would require Congressional approval.

You know those countries which have a parliament but then have a dictator and the parliament is just nice looking.

Well we are one of them.

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OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 16:13

@MarkDiStef
You simply can’t argue with that logic.

@PippaCrerar
PM’s official spokesman unimpressed by OBR claims there is no Brexit dividend. “We have said very clearly that there is”.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 16:13

Labour appear to be fixated on writing themselves into oblivion with their navel gazing at this time.

If I am a little Confused about this entire anti-semitism sideshow, then what on earth will the care voters of the industrial base of Britain make of it ?

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 16:28

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 16:47

You know those countries which have a parliament but then have a dictator and the parliament is just nice looking.
Yes and that has been the REAL issue with Brexit.
That democracy has disappeared befire our eyes and no one said anything.
It started with the Brexit bill and is carrying on now. And why would anyone be bothered that he Parliament doesn’t have a word to say about trade deals anyway? We’ve already accepted so much with the Brexit bill. The henri VIII powers, Scotland loosing some of its decisions areas, spying on people etc etc
And that’s wo having to accept the decision that will affect the next generations (with a big S) without any parliamentary discussion. No debate about a soft Brexit, a hard Brexit etc...

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 16:57

Every time there is anything Brexit significant that Labour should be doing or hasn't done the reported focus returns to one issue -anti semitism.

It's weird.

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 17:00

I really have decided that anyone who now espouses a pro-Leave position is either a Fascist, an enabler of Fascism or utterly stupid.

It's time to break out the 'F' word.

All Brexit has done is to destabilise the UK's democracy. That's it. It's patently obvious now. It's the one, unarguable achievement.

If you are still supporting Brexit, you are destabilising democracy in the UK.

Forget all the BS about 'eventual outcomes', this IS what has happened, is happening, and will happen further.

It's pushed us into a supplicatiry relationship with Trump, who is too toxic for the Crown, FGS.

It's weakened all our structures and we now know it was facilitated by hostile agencies.

Really, I think it's time we can call Brexit supporters what they are.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 17:05

That democracy has disappeared befire our eyes and no one said anything.

Did we ever really have "democracy" though ? It could just be generally with the advent of social media, politicians realise that as a whole the electorate really are that thick, so we're getting treated with the contempt we (rightly) deserve ?

After all, if you always place your vote based on the colour of the rosette, you are eventually going to elect grade A cunt, after grade A cunt.

We should all look into out constituencies - do it now - and ask why was my MP elected ? Was it because of their party, or their policies ?

TheElementsSong · 17/07/2018 17:05

I had to do an awful lot of studying about parliamentary democracy and how it all works to pass my Life in the UK test, all those years ago. Perhaps it'll get rewritten and the questions a lot easier - "The Government does whatever the fuck it likes".

PineappleSunrise · 17/07/2018 17:10

Remember all those questions we had to answer about what percentage of people in the UK came from immigrant backgrounds, and how incredibly low the numbers are?

Just think, if Britons had to pass the Life in the UK test UKIP wouldn't have got anywhere.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 17:16

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
We’re approaching the key customs vote at around 6pm. Some worrying the government will find a way of ensuring it gets too late and there’s no time to vote on it (! - mayhem).

But opposition and Tory rebels working together to speed business up to stop this happening

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