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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Thread gallery
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BlueEyeshadow · 17/07/2018 14:38

Agh! One of DH's uncles (who is meant to be intelligent and worked in banking for years) just posted an "I voted leave, I didn't vote for half measures" thing on Facebook.

What I want to write in response is "then you voted to wreck my business and my children's futures as well as screw up the entire country, and I will find it very hard ever to forgive you". But as I'd better not, I'm writing it here instead.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 14:39

hide move all referendum discussion out of sight
Check out the feminist threads and womansplaceuk.org/DGR and you'll see that for reasons of actual women's safety now, women discussing politics and related issues have to be discreet. Physical meetings have to be held in secret. If we hadn't been hidden, we might not have been able to go on as long in a very public forum.

By the way, Chope has done it again. Blocking women's access to Women's Meetings, strangely.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-christopher-chope-blocks-plan-to-allow-women-mps-from-around-the-world-to-sit-in-parliament_uk_5b4d9a19e4b0fd5c73be6b55

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 14:45

About all the people who didn't vote for half measures. I think we have an undetected epidemic which under funding the NHS has missed. Symptoms include selective amnesia, problems with attention span, problems expressing empathy with others, hearing difficulties and issues with eye sight which make reading difficult.

Nadine Dorries @ Nadine Dorries
The Norway model. Always my preference with benefits paid only to UK citizens enabling free movement for work.
27 June 2016

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missmoon · 17/07/2018 14:46

In fairness to the missing Lib Dem’s, although they should have been better prepared, it seems that Labour were going to whip to abstain (so there would have been a comfortable government win), and then changed to voting against at the last minute.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 14:47

Pippa Crera @ pippacrera
PM’s official spokesman unimpressed by OBR claims there is no Brexit dividend. “We have said very clearly that there is”.

news.sky.com/story/amp/obr-takes-aim-at-governments-brexit-dividend-boost-for-nhs-11439355?__twitter_impression=true
OBR takes aim at government's 'Brexit dividend' boost for NHS

The independent OBR fears the government's planned NHS spending boost could push the national debt to unsustainable levels.

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Tanith · 17/07/2018 14:49

That may be so, but the LibDems have boasted of being the only mainstream party to represent Remainers.

They have no business missing any Brexit-related vote.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 14:49

Christopher Hope @ Christopherhope
BREAKING Sir Michael Fallon, former Tory Defence secretary and Theresa May loyalist, to vote against Government motion for MPs to break for an early summer break, telling me "longer holidays [are] an idiotic idea when the country expect us to sort stuff. I will vote against.”

And then there were four Tory Holiday Rebels.

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 14:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 15:03

it seems that Labour were going to whip to abstain (so there would have been a comfortable government win), and then changed to voting against at the last minute

If Barbara Castle or John Smith were alive now they'd be having a meeting right now with all the solid cross party labour, SNP, liberal and tory remain/soft brexit MPs sorting out how they turn up and turn down any future ERG/ kipper nonsense, from this point on.

Maybe all the soft brexit/ remain MPs should invest in old fashioned pagers/ or whistles?

But they need to get seriously sorted, cross party. Now. I know it has never happened before, but neither has brexit. In a war, it's normal to have a co alition government?

Mr Rees-Mogg is understood not to have been one of the MPs threatening to vote against the Third Reading. He said today: “I will be supporting the Government today and have no amendments down. The key test will be the customs amendment.” Steve Baker, the former Brexit minister, is believed to be masterminding the hardball tactics of the Brexiteers

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-latest-tory-rebels-warn-theresa-may-they-will-stand-up-to-hard-brexiteers-if-pm-can-t-a3889221.html.

Kids aren't here so I can shout and swear to my hearts content
Go well, sister. Grin

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:09

It potentially gets worse for the LDs

Esther Webber @ estwebber
Here's a thing. Hansard records a total of 305 MPs who voted for the govt's new clause 36 last night, but only 304 names are listed
Such discrepancies are not unusual, but unusual on such a tight vote. If it really was 305, nbd. But if it was 304 then two Lib Dems' absence was crucial. The vote would have been tied, Speaker would have had deciding vote and the amendment would have fallen
Seems we won't find out which figure is correct unless an MP identifies that they are missing from the list. And the 305 figure would have been reached in agreement between tellers, so stands for now

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Yaralie · 17/07/2018 15:10

The Lib Dems have admitted that Vince and Tim should have been there last night but the govt would still have won because three Labour MPs supported them. I don't think the LibDems will make that mistake again.

Yaralie · 17/07/2018 15:11

Sorry, I think four Labour members supported the govt and they won by three votes.

Violetparis · 17/07/2018 15:11

Lib Dems blaming Labour whips makes them look pathetic.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 15:11

Such discrepancies are not unusual, but unusual on such a tight vote
Hmm

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:11

Brexiteers are OBSESSED with the Corn Laws. Obsessed. I swear there isn't a brexit debate without reference to them.

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lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 15:17

*Corn Laws
*
They are obsessed with living in the past.

As long as there's some return to greater class division and restricted health and education for less fortunate it doesn't matter which retrograde period we return to. As long as it's backwards it's ok.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 15:19

Everyone sees the repeal of the Corn Laws as a decisive shift toward free trade .

Interestingly it was Ireland once again and the urgent need for new food supplies that led to Peel's repeal.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 15:22

Brexiteers are OBSESSED with the Corn Laws.

Easy to spell, I guess.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:33

Arthur Snell @ snellarthur
Labour MPs that did't vote last night:
Debbie Abrahams
Karen Buck
Paul Flynn
Yvonne Fovargue
Vicky Foxcroft
Lindsay Hoyle
Ian Lucas
Steve McCabe
Laura Pidcock
Cat Smith
Derek Twigg
Keith Vaz
Tom Watson
Rosie Winterton
Mohammed Yasin

Some strong pro-Remain constits unrepresented.

Jon Stone @ Joncstone
Of this list:

Abrahams recovering from surgery
Buck chaired bill committee so couldn’t vote
Foxcroft was a teller
Pidcock is on maternity
Smith just gave birth
Hoyle and Winterton are deputy speakers
Watson was in hospital

Others may have reasons too

That leaves
Paul Flynn - Newport West
Yvonne Fovargue - Makerfield
Ian Lucas - Wrexham
Steve McCabe - Selly Oak
Derek Twigg - Halton
Keith Vaz - Leicester East
Mohammed Yasin - Bedford and Kempston

who are yet to give us their excuses

As well as Jared O'Mara who Labour can take responsibility for being in Parliament in the first place. I look forward to his latest shit excuse with baited breath.

I must admit that seeing the shadow minister for getting up to dodgy shit, aka Keith Vaz, does not surprise me. I hope I'm wrong and he's incapacitated in hospital after being run over by a rabbit that's been on the rampage.

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Mistigri · 17/07/2018 15:36

I'm annoyed with the messaging on the LD absences last night. The ERG amendment passed because Labour brexiters voted for it. That is where the blame lies.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:37

Nadine Dorries @NadineDorries
I think you have been deceived. Farron and Cable both know, even in their Remain constituenciesthat there is an anger towards the EU bullying and a ‘get on with it’ attitude They are trying old LibDem practice of harnessing votes by being the least contentious party. #Headsdown

Do your homework Nadine. I know this is wrong off the top of my head without checking. Farron's constituency was strongly leave. It was one of the reasons he was thought vulnerable at the GE and could lose his seat.

I swear, I want to lock everyone of these MPs up in the Tower of London until they learn to do some bloody reading or pay attention to whats going on around them.

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Mistigri · 17/07/2018 15:38

Cross posted with RTB. Yes indeed let's stop blaming a party with a handful of MPs and start laying the blame where it belongs i.e. with the party that I have always voted for but which has almost forgotten how to oppose. They need to start behaving like an opposition and stop bleating about the will of the people and tuition fees.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:39

How on earth are the EU supposed to react? A thread.
twitter.com/kevinhorourke/status/1018988374877761536

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DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 15:42

What was the adage about law and sausages ?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-live-updates-theresa-may-customs-union-vote-rebel-tory-mp-defeat-cabinet-chequers-a8450526.html

Theresa May faces a fresh battle in the Commons over Brexit just hours after narrowly avoiding a humiliating defeat over her customs legislation.

After the prime minister “caved in” to hardline Brexiteers on the Conservative backbenches on Monday evening, offering them a compromise, enraged pro-EU MPs are now raising the prospect of a major rebellion later today.

They have tabled an amendment to the trade bill that says it should be the objective of the government to establish a frictionless free trade area for goods between the UK and EU.

If this is not achieved by January 2019, then the government will be forced to achieve an agreement that enables Britain to participate in a customs union with the bloc – something the Labour party already advocates.

Voting comes as trouble brews for the government on another front as they ask MPs to vote on a motion that brings forward the parliamentary recess by four days.

Labour and Conservative MPs have already spoken out against the plans, with the former minister Phillip Lee condemning any thought of an earlier break as “shameful” at a “crucial time”.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 15:43

Remind me, why is it we are in this mess again?

Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick
Alison McGovern, Labour MP for Wirral South, says Vote Leave offences reported by Electoral Commission today are “one of the worst ... abuses of electoral law in this House’s lifetime”.
Actually I can think of far worse. A senior Labour official once admitted to me party spent about £500,000 on the 1997 by-election in er, Wirral South, when the legal limit was about £25,000. I should stress this was well before Alison McGovern was the MP for Wirral South.

facepalm

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