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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 12:46

Has anyone else noticed how quiet the "we can feed ourselves" merchants have gone ?

With the UK practically in drought, and crop yields going down (so animal feed prices - and thus food prices - going up) 2019 might not be the best to start experiencing food shortages bought on by our own idiocy.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 12:50

With the UK practically in drought, and crop yields going down (so animal feed prices - and thus food prices - going up) 2019 might not be the best to start experiencing food shortages bought on by our own idiocy.

and no pickers .

I actually agree with whoever said some acute French industrial action leading to a stack -to -end all- stacks may give us a short sharp shock.

Except it would make the EU even more reviled.Never mind that French union law is domestic and not EU derived that distinction would , of course, be lost on everyone.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 12:57

If there is a run on the currency and capital flight after Brexit, the govt may re-impose capital controls;
The UK had these since WW2, but MrsT removed them in the 1980s, as the SIngle Market was being developed

In that case, ordinary citizens and small businesses would be prevented from moving more than a small amount - maybe holiday money -
of capital from a UK account.

frumpety There is a guarantee up to a certain amount now, but in the case of a real Brexit crash affecting both banks & govt income ..
that guarantee could be cancelled overnight

I remember reading about how a German women back in the 1920s, during the hyperinflation and DMark collapse - hundreds of DMarks per dollar - who had German interest-bearing bonds,
She told the local office that her interest had stopped being paid and demanded the interest due
The official replied something like "Madam, there is no money any more. It's all gone"

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/07/2018 13:00

I wonder if Brexit will kill EuroMillions ?

Before the referendum the lottery put up a thing about how a leave vote would affect the euromillions. They said it wouldn't - except that a devalued pound would make the prizes seem higher but be worth less.

Of course they may not have been thinking about a no deal scenario back then - as even Farage was talking about Norway.

But Euromillions is not EU affiliated. There are non-EU countries in it (I think) and plenty of EU countries not in it.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 13:00

Not sure what relevance immigration has now we seem to be on the path to pulling up
The drawbridge but this was out today...

Germany, Italy and Greece are most likely to be seen to be taking more than their fair share.

yougov.co.uk/news/2018/07/17/eurotrack-uk-denmark-finland-and-norway-not-pullin/

The UK, Denmark, Finland and Norway are perceived to be not pulling their weight, with people more likely to say they are not taking less than their fair share of the burden than think they are taking more than their fair share.

This perception is held by all Europeans except for those in the country in question – i.e. while everyone else tends to say the UK is not pulling its weight, in the UK itself people are more likely to believe they are taking on more than their fair share.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 13:16

Sarah Woolaston and Nicholas Soames fighting the good fight in HOC atm. She's called for a ref re run.

EU seems to be doing fine without us. I'm sure they'll find a way to carry on......
@IanDunt
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, the EU and Japan are today signing the largest free trade deal either of them has ever negotiated. It will create an open trade zone covering nearly a 3rd of the world's GDP

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 13:21

But Euromillions is not EU affiliated. There are non-EU countries in it (I think) and plenty of EU countries not in it.

But under what rules ?

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 13:21

I cannot see why Sarah Woollaston still takes the Tory whip. She would be much better sitting as an Independent.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 13:22

.

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 13:22

Harry Cole @ mrharrycole
Was that a call for a rerun of the referendum from @NSoames? Says the "whole damn thing needs blowing up and starting again."

Soames replied no. But clearly thinks whole process a farce.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 13:29

Vince Cable @ VinceCable
We have led the fight against Brexit and we will now redouble our efforts.
www.libdems.org.uk/last-nights-trade-bill-votes
Last night’s trade bill votes
Statement from Chief

Last night I messed up. The government squeaked home by just 3 votes in a key amendment. It should have been 1.

No shit.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 13:30

Ian Dunt @ iandunt
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, the EU and Japan are today signing the largest free trade deal either of them has ever negotiated. It will create an open trade zone covering nearly a 3rd of the world's GDP

But those Post Brexit trade deals....

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 13:34

Nicholas Soames @ nsoames
An appalling decision to adjourn House on thurs which I will not support We have much work to do outside the Brexit SNAFU.#whoisinchargeoftheclatteringtrain

Paddy Briggs @ Paddy Briggs
Sir Nicholas a good bellweather. A natural loyalist but not one that takes any old sh*t.

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OlennasWimple · 17/07/2018 13:37

LDs have seriously dented their credibility in the last 24 hours. Wonder if this will see an end to their revival?

FridayThirteenth · 17/07/2018 13:38

I'm a signed up Lib Dem member but I am beyond pissed off about the no shows. Unacceptable.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 13:39

But those Post Brexit trade deals
People have had enough of exports.
(I stole that)

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 13:43

Grin @woman11017

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 13:45

Interesting Brexit is starting to reach the parts other fuckups couldn't reach - on MN leastways.

Of course if there were another referendum, I know 4 people who'd vote remain who couldn't vote in 2016. And in discussion, they didn't know anyone in their peer group who wasn't a remainer.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 14:01

Last night I messed up. The government squeaked home by just 3 votes in a key amendment. It should have been 1.

No shit.

Yes but credit where credit's due.
If you fuck up (and it's a huge one) it is good to admit it and own it.

Far better than the lies, empty rhetoric, circumventing parliamentary process, egos, coups de deceit, fake news, electoral fraud and insurgent tactics shown by our current betters.

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/07/2018 14:09

But under what rules ?

That much I don't know. Prior to the referendum they said it would not be a problem (but they did balance it with weaker pound warnings). They did not put a caveat on about what type of brexit was needed in order for it not to be a problem. As with literally everything else in the past two years... things may have changed. But the lottery issue was one that people were clearly wondering about - as the lottery put info up about it.

So I guess if brexit will affect the euromillions that might focus some minds...
But it may be that the lottery remains correct - and there is no problem going forward. I don't know whether I presume the good people at Camelot are looking into this or not. It seems mad that they wouldn't... but so many businesses are not preparing.

I've just been reading the 'remainer moral superiority' thread. I know a lot of you are on it. I find it suspicious. 'I'm a remainer but I'm pissed off with remainers... and I just thought I'd post this the day after the Govt allowed an amendment to their white paper that basically assures a no deal doomsday scenario and a return to the troubles in NI... but it's remainers I'm pissed off at' ...?

We're not allowed to troll hunt but ...
(plus there is a leave poster on there whose user name isn't 'cambridgeanalytica' but is only a few letters off. A very strange thread all in all.)

prettybird · 17/07/2018 14:09

Given that there's not time for a Referendum within the next 2 months (nor a GE although technically possible ), I know ds will be voting to Remain as he will have turned 18. As will his friends.

He's also looking forward to voting in Indyref2 Wink

citroenpresse · 17/07/2018 14:18

Last night I messed up. The government squeaked home by just 3 votes in a key amendment. It should have been 1.

It should have been defeated (surely that was the plan....).

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 14:24

I've just been reading the 'remainer moral superiority' thread.

I'm still less than impressed that MNHQ rushed with almost Theresa-May-speed to hide move all referendum discussion out of sight (which of course led a lot of subscribers thinking "Well, that's that then.") and now is more than happy to dilute have discussion wherever people want it. Leading to my post a while back asking what's the point of a "Brexit" board ?

I guess it was something to do with advertising revenue ?

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 14:26

The Government's official and independent spending watchdog has confirmed that there is no "brexit dividend" for the UK, despite the claims of ministers.

" Brexit is more likely to weaken than strengthen the public finances overall," the OBR said in its latest Fiscal Sustainability Report.

[No shit, again]

Instead, the OBR said that the unfunded £20bn extra a year pledge within five years had worsened its long-term state projections for the public finances relative to its forecasts last year.

The OBR estimated that the £20bn pledge will be enough for the NHS to cope with demographic pressures for the next two years, but that by 2027-28 a gap would open up again.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-dividend-nhs-obr-fiscal-sustainability-report-a8450731.html?amp&utmcampaign=Echobox&utmmmedium=Social&utmsource=Twitter&twitterrimpression=true

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 14:34

Tom Newton Dunn @ tnewtondunn
I understand Govt whips are trying to group @NickyMorgan01's NC18 into the last batch of amendments tonight so time runs out for it to be called. One Govt minister says numbers are "extremely close".

FFS

'Democracy'

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