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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 11:00

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/news/68508/pat-mcfaddens-letters-police-and-electoral-commission-vote-leave
Pat McFadden's letters to police and Electoral Commission on Vote Leave

Labour MP Pat McFadden's letters to the police and Electoral Commission about Vote Leave.

Date of this article??

FEBRUARY 2016.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 11:01

Esther Webber @estwebber
Because of Commons timings, if the motion on early recess is moved and opposed it will be voted on tomorrow - so the story gets a third day

They won't want this. Another tactical error?

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 11:03

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 11:05

Darren Grimes thinks being 22 is an excuse for breaking the law.

twitter.com/darrengrimes_/status/1019143213792288768

Now I know he's been royally stitched up, but if you are signing important paperwork understanding what you are doing is pretty important.

Imagine if you were leading a major campaign on a serious issue with long term consequences for your entire country and didn't have an eye for detail...

oh wait.

Fuck off Grimes. I don't want yours to be the only head on the chopping block but accept some responsibility.

Its not as if you'll pay the fine anyway. Some rich donor will bail you out.

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BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 11:06

is there any difference in what is achieved between opening an euro account with a Uk bank versus one with an eu bank?

For me, a euro account in the U.K. helps protecting the value of the money (on the ground that the pound is likely to collapse soon)
There is an issue with the fact it might be more difficult than it is now to take funds out of the U.K. etc etc
An account in Europe means more stability (financial market/banks) and the possibility to use that money there (important if you plan to actually move to Europe for example).
I would Be very surpised if the U.K. was stopping money coming IN the country. But they might have restriction of what you can take OUT iyswim.

My plan is to move back to France anyway so having an account there is an important step. Regardless of whether I will be moving in March 19 or in 5 yeas time (my ideal scenario)

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 11:07

www.pressgazette.co.uk/bbc-defends-claim-it-has-barely-covered-brexit-scandals-in-act-of-journalistic-cowardice-saying-it-does-not-shy-away-from-hard-hitting-journalism/
BBC defends claim it has barely covered Brexit 'scandals' in act of 'journalistic cowardice' saying it 'does not shy away from hard-hitting journalism'

And you can fuck off too BBC.

Its a morning of piss poor excuses by people who have not done their fucking jobs right.

FUCK THE FUCK OFF.

Give me a job you fuckers.

Oh wait, you rejected me on the basis of a psychometric test. Not bitter. Honest.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 11:12

What is the reasoning for trying to finish parliament early?

so there is less chance of May being no confidence voted or ousted by the 1922 committee.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 11:15

Peter Geoghegan @PeterKGeoghegan
Bizarre way for Darren Grimes to spin this. "The Commission is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that all Mr Grimes’ and BeLeave’s spending on referendum campaigning was incurred under a common plan with Vote Leave." This isn't 'box thinking', it's a flagrant breach of law

Don't worry Darren politically elected judges are on their way.

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 11:15

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 11:16

The rest if the news today

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/eu-japan-free-trade-deal-brexit-uk-leave-asia-a8450476.html
Somwe now have a brand new trade deal with japan too!
Hold on, no actually we are loosing that now too...

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 11:21

Born
I doubted anything would make me laugh but that really did.
"Alternatively there could be very basic tests of idiocy, such as ‘Does Lord of the Rings depict an actual period of British history?’ or ‘Do you regularly eat raw chicken?’.
“If people answer ‘yes’ their ballot paper can go straight in the bin. It’s not very democratic but then neither is lying about 99.9 per cent of things to do with the EU.”
Leave voter Roy Hobbs said: “It’s typical of Remainers to call Leave voters idiots, but I voted for totally valid reasons like not wanting to be conscripted into the EU army. I’m too old to become a paratrooper at 63.”

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 11:26

I actually still can't believe what happened yesterday. I'm actually in shock.

I think a lot of MPs need to wake up and realise that losing your seat is NOT the worst thing that can happen. People are going to be irrational when there are food shortages and when the jobs cull starts. And I believe they have truly begun the work of undoing democracy in the UK.

I suspect s lot of Conservative MPs do just have their head in the sand about this. Anna Soubry is right: only about 40 are the lunatic, swivel-eyed contingent.

The rest need to seriously stop hoping it's all going to be OK and realise they are endangering their families and their constituents.

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 11:29

lonelyplanetmum. That's a good one.😁

Given that it's clear the Leave vote has destabilised the UK, politically, economically and socially, and was almost certainly driven and facilitated by interests hostile to the UK, I think we are allowed to start calling Leave voters thick.

frumpety · 17/07/2018 11:40

Quick question , you know money in UK bank and building society accounts is guaranteed up to a certain figure, well if said banks and building societies are stress tested by Brexit would that guarantee still be valid ?

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 11:43

red thank you for all your fuck off messages. They're pretty much what I'm shouting out whenever I see something today. Except yours have some more words and make more sense than my fuck off, just fuck right off you complete fuckers comments.

frumpety · 17/07/2018 11:47

Not asking for myself, I have no money.

frumpety · 17/07/2018 11:48

Actually I lied , I have £7.43 and the winning lottery ticket for tonight Wink

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 12:00

and the winning lottery ticket for tonight

I wonder if Brexit will kill EuroMillions ? Might wake a few people up.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 12:15

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
BREAKING: Labour to vote FOR rebel Tory amendment to Trade Bill on customs union. This could get very tricky indeed for the Prime Minister.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 12:18

When I get home I'll start the conversation about civil emergency and martial law....

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frumpety · 17/07/2018 12:22

A senior Labour source said: “We saw yesterday there is no majority for May’s Chequers’ agreement. But there is a majority for a customs union. Today parliament has the chance to change the course of the Brexit negotiations, protect jobs and the economy. Fingers crossed the Lib Dems turn up.”

Ouch !

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 12:38

Thinking about it, EuroMillions - gambling across state borders - is probably going to have to go.

Would people be entitled to a refund, if they've paid beyond March 29th 2019 ?

Tanith · 17/07/2018 12:39

"Born
I doubted anything would make me laugh but that really did.
"Alternatively there could be very basic tests of idiocy, such as ‘Does Lord of the Rings depict an actual period of British history?’ or ‘Do you regularly eat raw chicken?’.
“If people answer ‘yes’ their ballot paper can go straight in the bin. It’s not very democratic but then neither is lying about 99.9 per cent of things to do with the EU.”
Leave voter Roy Hobbs said: “It’s typical of Remainers to call Leave voters idiots, but I voted for totally valid reasons like not wanting to be conscripted into the EU army. I’m too old to become a paratrooper at 63.”"

Or the Ricky Gervais version (paraphrased):
"Take the 'Do not drink' warnings off the bleach bottles for a couple of months, then have the referendum!"

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 12:42

“If people answer ‘yes’ their ballot paper can go straight in the bin. It’s not very democratic but then neither is lying about 99.9 per cent of things to do with the EU.”

I really know people who simply take the top half of a pile of cvs and put the rest in the "sorry" tray.

When I've recruited, woe betide a spelling mistake.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 12:46

If I'm ever involved in recruitment again, I'm going to subtly find out Brexit proclivities.