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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 10:27

All very helpful thank you brexitwife.
I'm not buying that on Farron or Cable, red What's really going on?

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 10:28

I have my euro Account in the uk with HSBC. It REALLY wasn’t an issue at all to open one (we are banking with them).
I opened it just after the result of the referendum to try and protect the value of the little savings I have.

PineappleSunrise · 17/07/2018 10:29

Have they decided to wash their hands of ALL of this, and wait for the Conservatives and the strangely supplicant Labour to carry the can for the entire coming disaster?

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 10:30

I'm not buying that on Farron or Cable, red What's really going on?

Maybe they had a secret suggestion not to be near parliament Hmm

We could do with some bold plotting right now ...

54321go · 17/07/2018 10:30

Talking with a British driver this morning, what happens to the Isle of Man and other 'smaller' bits of the world with UK influence (not sure of the PC way to describe these various places!)?
These was also a bit I noticed yesterday where through the GFA anyone on the island of Ireland (possibly just NI) can chose to have British, Irish or both nationalities on their passport. They are angry because that deal is being ripped up.
I hope A50 isn't extended, the business community (rippling down to almost everyone) NEEDS clarification as soon as possible. An extension will just let all the business rot.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 10:31

Btw the HSBC euro acciunt doesn’t ask you to have a business account at all. Just a normal current acciunt is fine.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 10:32

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 10:33

Or an extension will allow businesses that haven’t planned anything yet to get their acts together.
In the NE, where I am, that’s more than 80% of businesses who don’t have any plan at all re Brexit, let alone a No deal situation.....

54321go · 17/07/2018 10:33

Bold plotting? Some guy had that idea a few years back. Nov 5th I believe.

54321go · 17/07/2018 10:34

Actually his plan didn't work quite right either and he had a very nasty and prolonged 'end'.

Childrenofthesun · 17/07/2018 10:39

Shambles from the Lib Dems, and I'm a paid-up member so will be expressing my disgust to them.

Labour's shadow minister for Industrial strategy, Chi Onwurah, spells out Labour's post-Brexit economic strategy in the i today.

www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/brexit-eu-theresa-may-economy-industrial-strategy-finance-labour-a8449041.html

Seems to be a fairly decent anaylsis but rather heavier on criticising the Tories than coming up with their own suggestions. Also makes reference to "a customs union". Talk of redirecting the UK economy towards regional manufacturing and away from financial services, funded by a "National Transformation Fund" of £250 bn across 10 years. I'm not convinced that sort of some would be enough to create new manufacturing centres, nor where they're going to find the money given the economic hit we'll take from Brexit, nor why they think UK manufacturing can have any success outside of the single market.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:42

The LDs have pretty much said they were not paying attention.

It's been known for WEEKS that the rebels were planning to put an amendment in on the customs union and that it had the potential to run close.

That's one taking the eye off the ball alright. I'm staggered.

I'm trying to think of an alternative and I'm struggling. Any sort of other 'masterplan' which involved bringing down May and triggering a GE involves a loss of a vote in the HOC.

Poor. Really poor.

Especially when their stated position is to remain not even EEA.

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OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 10:45

Same with me children.
I knew about Farron and that angered the hell out of me. Talking about illiberalism in Dorset rather than actually trying to do something about it in Parliament.
Was hoping Cable at least had a decent excuse. That meeting had better have been mightily important, but can't honestly see what would have been that much more important.
So one very very angry paid up member here.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:45

I'm not buying that on Farron or Cable, red What's really going on?

No thats really the case.

They fucked up.

It makes more sense if you appreciate the degree to which the LDs operate out of spare bedrooms tbh.

Everyone thinks they have offices all over the place. Nope its someone's printer next to their sofa bed.

Last night, it showed.

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 10:46

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 17/07/2018 10:48

To anybody more knowledgeable than me - is there any difference in what is achieved between opening an euro account with a Uk bank versus one with an eu bank?

My concern is whether potential future uk legislation could make it impossible to take euro funds out of the uk if the account was with a uk bank?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:48

Tim Farron @timfarron
I was authorised to be absent from the vote last night for a pre-arranged engagement. Nobody expected the vote to be as close as it was. We clearly called it wrong, as did Labour, and I take full responsibility for my part – the Tories don’t deserve any luck.

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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borntobequiet · 17/07/2018 10:50

I too have sent a furious communication to the LDs.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:50

Honestly the Trade Bill after the Withdrawal Bill was supposed to close. How come it was on my radar but not the LDs?

Were they stitched up by someone saying it wouldn't happen and they beleived it????

I can not for the life of me understand that given how the last few votes have been like the Hokey Kokey and there has only been a final decision in the last hour or so.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:53

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Confirmed: Labour will vote AGAINST government motion for early summer recess. Will ministers now pull it to avoid humiliating defeat?

As I say. U-Turn by 2.30pm???

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:55

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
EXC: European Parliament demands free and semi-automatic registration of 3m EU citizens in UK after #Brexit...as Commission frets over whether the EU states will be ready to implement their side of Withdrawal Agreement

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/17/european-parliament-demands-free-semi-automatic-registration/
European Parliament demands free and semi-automatic registration of 3m EU citizens in UK after Brexit

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:56

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
Today's #WaughZone is in your inbox. Lots on May facing a fresh Remainer rebellion on Brexit, new calls to delay Exit Day, Labour's bid to embed Corbynism, Vote Leave fined + more
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/the-waugh-zone-tuesday-july-17-2018_uk_5b4db72ee4b0de86f4864890?pf6

Labour are rewritting how they work so that Corbynites have control of the party

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:57

Labour Whips @labourwhips
Breaking News: One UQ granted at 1130 to @ChukaUmunna to ask @DLidington to make a statement on the Electoral Commission investigation findings that Vote Leave broke electoral law.

Urgent Question in HoC at 11.30am

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:58

oh and Christoper Chope offers us a glimpse of the future.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-christopher-chope-blocks-plan-to-allow-women-mps-from-around-the-world-to-sit-in-parliament_uk_5b4d9a19e4b0fd5c73be6b55?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics
Tory MP Christopher Chope Blocks Plan To Allow Women MPs From Around The World To Sit In Parliament

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