Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 09:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 09:30

I also wondered about travel insurance
I've just renewed my annual one. Same price and taking me through to June next year, on the policy there's no reference to you know what. I have noticed that ATOL protection has disappeared from flights this month though, I've not researched why.

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 09:31

That's the problem, isn't it? We just don't know. There are so many areas which need to be worked out - enough to keep teams of people at work for a solid ten years or more. Pensions? EHIC, aviation, cancer treatments, just in time movement of parts? Fishing, quotas of goods at current bundled up with the rest of the EU - we could just go on and on.
Think of how long it takes to negotiate a house sale, or drawing up a will or even getting a new job. All of these take time, multiply that by 10s of thousands, but it will all be alright because the ERG say so.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 09:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 09:33

^Open an account in euro, put your money there.
Open an account in an eu country, move the euros onto that account^

Dumb question, but do you physically have to go to said country to do so, or are there ones online which are OK? (any tacit recommendations?) Thanks for the lists and advice BCF and all.

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 09:34

ATOL protection had disappeared from Monarch flights which we found out last year. Fortunately, I had paid by credit card, and got my money back.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 09:37

ATOL went out of business, I see:
www.caa.co.uk/News/CAA-steps-in-to-support-holidaymakers-following-ATOL-failure/

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 09:41

No I think that was just one ATOL protected company, not ATOL itself.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 09:45

Do not look at what J Patrick is predicting folks. It is what I predicted to a moronic brexist ex services male friend of my MIL, pre ref. Having no legislature sitting for months on end is not advisable under current conditions. And with Williamson in post, very bad.

DGRossetti · 17/07/2018 09:45

"Dual nationals considered" ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/17/europes_exascale_supercomputer_chips/

Analysis The European Union's consortium to develop European microprocessors for future supercomputers has taken a few more steps towards its goal of delivering a locally made exascale chip by 2025.

(contd)

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 09:46

thanks peregrina

placemats · 17/07/2018 09:51

Glad I found this thread. Last night was a moment that will go down in history.

I'm still hopeful that there will be an extension to Article 50 and by dent a new referendum. Still if the Pocalypse doesn't get us, Armageddon will.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 09:55

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 09:56

Facing reality.

No deal is now close to certain.

On the government's own figures this means:

  1. 8% less GDP
  1. £158,000,000,000 less per year.
  1. 2,800,000 more unemployed.

How bad will this be?

So shit quality US food, queues, rationing, inability to travel, a pound that's worthless elsewhere. What else?

Perhaps we actually can survive this in a 1940's or 1970's way??

What bothers me is that when extremists win they don't stop. So immigration will be reduced but what then? That won't be enough- the hate doesn't go away. The next steps will be what? 'Repatriations' , relocations, ghettos, denial of education and any health care left to certain groups in society? No health care for many? Where can this go? I guess the extreme scenarios still take years to evolve?

At some point sooner or later we look more like the USA? With 540 billionaires but 43 million people below the poverty line, often lacking food and the usual or socially acceptable amount of money or possessions.

The result of the Liam Fox etc path we have endorsed is best illustrated by US. There is child poverty at record high levels, with 16.7 million children living in food insecure households and teenagers in low income communities selling drugs etc.

I think this article paints a realistic summary of what we could emulate.

Already it's working though. For the first time I'm no longer thinking about what's best for everyone. It's survival of the fittest-I am thinking just about how my family can be ok.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/13/millions-of-americans-live-in-extreme-poverty-heres-how-they-get-by/?utm_term=.b5c0303f74e3

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 10:03

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 10:04

Good I must put some money into a Euro account, if that's possible.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 10:05

thank you mother

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 10:05

Hmm, Lloyds one has to be a business account.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 10:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 10:09

Great stuff, thank you both.

bookbook · 17/07/2018 10:14

I have been following this thread since the beginning .
I am in the same thought process almost as lonely here -.
I was brought up in a family with very little money , and remember it well . I went through all the worries of the 70's/ 80's with a young family . I am now comfortable, my children are , but my heart wails for the ones who aren't. And most have no idea what is going to happen.
My DC's joke about me because it seems I have been a prepper all my adult life - I talk about food security , grow my own , stock things 'just in case ', and mend things . Looks like we are all going to have to re learn these skills.
I have written to my MP ( total Brexit man) numerous times - he doesn't even reply now.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:23

Robert Peston @ peston
LibDem source says @vincecable was “off the parliamentary estate at an important meeting” and his absence was “approved by LibDem whips” - because LibDems “didn’t expect vote to be close”. Shame in this age of social media there’s no way of staying in touch

Vince Cable has yet to enter the era of the mobile phone never mind social media.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 10:24

Apparently Tim Farron was doing a talk in Dorset.

OP posts:
BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 10:25

woman I’m opening my account in France whilst been in the uk.
My parents have had theirs for years.
You don’t need to be living in the country to do so.

I’m using Boursorama. It’s a normal bank. I couldn’t apply on the internet and had to ask for paper documents.
There was noting complex. Justbthe normal stuff such as proof of id (passport), proof of address (electricity bill), an account number in the uk (bank statement) and my NI number.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 10:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.