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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:37

Travel insurance may be invalid after Brexit, because a no deal would see the UK lose the right to certify planes, maintenance, replacement parts, ships, pilots & captains licences, airports etc
Insurance companies & travel companies have already started to put in weasel words in the small print to make sure they aren't liable.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 17/07/2018 08:38

I feel so despondent this morning. There is no escape for me or family in the event of hard Brexit.

Better start stocking up and putting the idea of moving house on hold...

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:48

imo ...
Anyone planning on a temporary stay outside the UK, to return after things have calmed down:

. Plan on 3 months and buy plenty of the currency in the UK (better rate) before you go
. Make sure you have all important documents like birth certs, marriage licence, degree certs, professional qualifications, medical records, pension statements, kids records etc in case you have to stay longer than expected.

Planning on a longer move / already on the continent?
. If there is no deal, that may well include no deal on expats.
So EU countries are likely to stick to the rules and deport anyone not self-supporting.
Especially if you arrive at the last moment
. So make sure you get a job asap - plenty of low & high level vacancies in e.g. Frankfurt area -
or visible means of support for at least 6 months

prettybird · 17/07/2018 08:48

Re Adam Wagner's Twitter thread: even if an Election Court were to have the power to overturn a Referendum result, I have no confidence that they would do so. Sad

Going back to the 2015 GE, the LibDem Liar Alistair Carmichael, MP for Orkney and Shetland, blatantly lied on TV while trying to smear Nicola Sturgeon. He won by 800 votes - having previously been a rock-solid LibDem seat Hmm. 4 of his constituents took him to an Electoral Court (crowd funded to do so - there was even a surplus which was given to charity Smile ).

The LibDem defence was that people expect politicians to lie Shock - and the court accepted this, saying that it couldn't be 100% sure that what he said changed the result Angry

Good news is that he wasn't awarded costs so that it cost him apparently c£250,000 Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:49

Cheapo option is if you have a big camper van and can just live in that, providing you can afford groceries, petrol

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 08:51

No escape for me and DH either, boldlygo, but I think the younger members of the family should be able to find somewhere else to go.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:55

Yes, the most that would happen even if an MP were proven to have broked the criminal law to get elected - almost never proved - is a rerun of that seat only.

The ref would never be legally over-turned.

Currently a 2nd ref - for which there is no time anyway - is likely to produce a similar knife-edge result, either way

Opinions might change Feb-March, as prep ramps up:
btw, expect to see troops recalled from overseas - they'll be guarding govt, essential installations, food depots - far to few to protect the general public.

SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 08:55

John Humphreys just managed to do an entire interview with Liam Fox without mentioning either the VAT and the Irish backstop or the vote leave fine. According to LF we are all just being too negative about the whole thing. Back to unicorns, wishful thinking and pulling together for the sunlit uplands.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:55

broken

TheElementsSong · 17/07/2018 08:56

DH in a miserable grump with me this morning, because I said "I told you so" - two years ago when the vote happened, I said that we should cut our losses (and they would have been huge losses) and just get out ASAP.

Skills-wise we could have gone almost anywhere we fancy, but they're the kind of jobs that take time to organise rather than the sort you can just rock up and start. So now it's too late.

ConstantlyCold · 17/07/2018 08:57

I feel so despondent this morning. There is no escape for me or family in the event of hard Brexit

Me too Sad

So worried about the future. My eldest is 7. I was hopeful that the U.K. would have recovered somewhat by the time she working age. My hopes are diminishing by the day.

20nil · 17/07/2018 09:03

I’m still waiting to hear why so many Remain MPs weren’t in parliament last night? Vince Cable has been a terrible LD leader.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 09:06

Mrsr8 even better than having cash in the house, esp if your aim is to move away.
Open an account in euro, put your money there.
Open an account in an eu country, move the euros onto that account

Agree with BigChoc that the rules that will in Europe re British citizens will the fall in line with the one for non eu citizens.
If you have a passport from an eu country, then you wont be sent back. Worth check the rules for partners and family but they will be much more lenient than here.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 09:07

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 09:08

SkyNews: European governments are advising businesses not to use British parts in goods for export ahead of Brexit,

https://news.sky.com/story/european-businesses-advised-to-avoid-using-british-parts-ahead-of-brexit-11395908

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 09:09

According to LF we are all just being too negative about the whole thing.
Isn’t that the whole point? Keeping the masses in the dark, keep them calm, everything will be ok. And when shit hits the fan, tell everyone to ‘Keep calm and keep going’ like in the olden times?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 09:09

Brexit is a real-time massive-scale experiment on what would happen
when a highly developed country decides to stress test simultaneously
ALL systems, processes & agencies affecting international trade & transport, domestic power supplies, imports & distribution of food, medicines, ...

If that doesn’t terrify you sufficiently, then look at who the UK will have running this experiment …

prettybird · 17/07/2018 09:10

I wonder if there is going to be a surge in people moving to Scotland in the hope that we succeed in getting our Independence and re joining the EU? Wink

I really must start going out and campaign actively again Grin

It would mean a hard border with England though Sad

Never has the potential future acronym FUKD - the Formerly United Kingdom and its Dependencies - seemed more appropriate! Hmm

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 09:11

I have been asked for my passport, proof of residence etc... but not an issue at all.
I would ask. Esp if you are going to have an Irish passport, there should be no issue opening an account in Ireland for example.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 09:11

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Somerville · 17/07/2018 09:11

I am currently in a rehab centre being treated for alcohol addiction

How brave, MissHoolie. And whilst I understand (to some extent, at least) how these events make it so tempting to drink - don't let the bastards get you down, my dear. Flowers

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 09:12

dexeu figures.

Figures David Davis thinks are ok.

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 09:12

This reply has been deleted

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Somerville · 17/07/2018 09:18

My eldest is about to start her A levels, and DC2 is only a year behind. So we can't move until just under three years time. But then we are. Even if we suddenly get a magician PM who pulls a rabbit out of the hat and we stay in the EU - the anti-Irish sentiment I've experienced since the vote is not how I want to raise my children. Whether we go to Dublin or Paris is still up in the air.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 09:19

Thanks Mrsr8 i found it!