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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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lonelyplanetmum · 17/07/2018 07:09

Thinking , thinking. I can't believe this is happening.i have the same stone in my stomach feeling I had after the referendum. I need a straw to clutch.

Is there even a slim chance that there is a 'give the ERG enough rope' strategy going on?

Is Vince Cable ill? He and some SNP/Labour voters could easily have turned the result the other way. It's really weird. Or are they throwing their hands up and saying the writing is on the wall, there's no hope.

Stones, straws. rope, walls I just don't know.

Trying to put odds on it..

  1. Is there even a 15 % chance that this is all a farce because everyone knows the White paper will be rejected by the EU anyway.. Could there still be a strategy of giving a sop to Leavers, Brexiteers and the ERG? Sort of saying look we took it to the absolute brink and tried to do what you wanted but now we need to have to have the softest Brexit. Then everyone will finally turn up as they can defeat the ERG.
  1. The alternative is we are as RTB said like an advanced country in the1930s facing a serious Xenophobia nationalistic meltdown which will sacrifice many things including NI for insane ideology. I too only thought this could happen when the economic meltdown was so severe the population were buying bread with wheelbarrows of notes. Maybe the economic divide in the country plus the fear of terrorism is a diluted modernised equivalent of the ingredients of the 1930's.

Please some-one come up with a straw to clutch. I can't believe we have let this happen.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 07:18

DH was still going it will be ok late last night. Said we won't know until the very last hour. When I explained it a bit more he said he could ask work to move him to Berlin. I asked about the house and how we could do that cos we can't sell it. He replied 'oh that'll be easy. I'll be paid enough in Euros cos the pound won't be worth shit. We can rent it eventually'.

He still won't ask. Still convinced deep down it'll be ok.

I'm pissed off.

Fortunately I have a crazy day today to keep me distracted at least for a while.

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 07:19

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 07:20

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 07:21

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 07:27

Everything stopped selling here in April apart from in price range we want to buy in (second time buyer small 3-4 bed).

Like just stopped. Estate agent said it had never been like that before.

We won't sell now cos of Brexit. Everyone who would move here to remainia is remainier than most remainers. Thus we are stuck.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 07:29

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
BREAKING: Electoral Commission confirms its finding that Vote Leave and Darren Grimes, founder of BeLeave, broke electoral law during the EU referendum. Both referred to the Metropolitan Police.

The patsy.

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Cailleach1 · 17/07/2018 07:30

While on a french language course, I stayed with a French family. One day, the grandfather was somber and tearful. The family explained it was the anniversary of the day so many young men from the town were taken and shot dead during WWII, in retaliation for something. I think (hope) things like this will keep alive the why of peace and the EU. This didn't happen in GB. Heck, NI didn't happen in GB and it is obvious they don't give a flying fig about it's recovery.

It is the stuff of dystopian novels right now.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 07:31

Jim Waterson @ jimwaterson
Electoral Commission concludes investigation into Brexit funds
*Vote Leave broke £7m legal spending limit by £500,000
*Vote Leave made inaccurate spending return

*Darren Grimes of BeLeave fined £20,000 and reported to police
*David Halsall of Vote Leave also reported to police

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 07:31

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frumpety · 17/07/2018 07:32

Vote Leave , so who in that organisation is going to take the hit I wonder ?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 07:33

Coming soon to the UK, shit like this:

www.thedailybeast.com/mgm-resorts-sues-victims-of-las-vegas-mass-shooting
MGM Resorts Sues Victims of Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Yes you read that right

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frumpety · 17/07/2018 07:34

Ah David Halsall , their responsible person !

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 07:35

It’s too late for re education.
That should have happened during the referendum campaign or just after.

That ship has already sailed. A no deal Brexit will bury the Tories and the public won't tolerate a hard right government run by Moggists
I dint agree with that either.
For one, seeing that a lot of people voted JUST because of immigration, that means that a LOT of people are actually close to a far right stance. Probably helped by years of brainwashing (or re education??) on how bad immigrants were taking School places, coming to the U.K. only to get benefit’s etc etc
And then you have to add the total apathy of the british population. They haven’t shown any inkling about ‘refusing a bad deal’ or about being against far right ideology/the breech of human rights etc etc.
It’s not new. No ever grumble about the effect (read breech if human rights) of the benefits cuts in disabled people, the way immigrants are treated, the hostile environment

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 07:36

He just refuses to see it
Men don't see what we do.
The white noise of psy ops techniques that have been used over the last 5 years and more, has been gendered, as well as racialised.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 07:38

I wonder how many Americans where saying 'it couldn't happen here' in summer 2016.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 07:38

were saying Blush

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 07:38

I’m wondering what to do next. My plan was based on us having a 2 years transition period (retraining atm so I can work when I’m back in France as the job I’m doing here isn’t allied in that form in France....)
So it looks like it’s fucked up.

Not sure what’s the next step now.

frumpety · 17/07/2018 07:40

Struggling to find any online images of David Halsall ?

Plonkysaurus · 17/07/2018 07:48

I'm swinging between wanting to rock back and forth in fear, absconding to Scotland and campaigning for freedom independence, and laughing loudly at the visual image of TM throwing her hands up in the commons and saying "let's just all go on holiday!"

You know that feeling when you're about to give birth, that phase known as transition? Both times when I was going through that bit I seriously attempted to leave the hospital. Labour was just shit, frankly, and I wasn't stupid enough to hang around and go through it, thank you very much. In my mind that's exactly what TM is doing now.

So, this amended white paper is just as unworkable as the original chequers draft, have I understood that right? It's brinkmanship. It's meant to terrify.

And it's going to cause riots if it gets through.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 07:53

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 07:54

Anyone know any good brexit survival planning consultants for carers/ women?
Personal safety, travel, passports, money and accommodation etc? Would be a good business to start up atm.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 07:57

Id Love to meet one too woman

SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 08:08

So the ERG who said that parliament should not tie the hands of the government in negotiations, has just tied the hands of the government in negotiations.

I have no plans to make because I have no way of leaving or protecting myself against a hard brexit. The only thing I can do is stockpile some food and perhaps try and save up a little cash, maybe in dollars would be best.

But I don't know. The likes of JRM with all his cash, has just made it likely that my life, and that of my children (one of whom is disabled), is going to be severely compromised. And there's fuck all I can do about it.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 08:09

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