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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Bagadverts · 17/07/2018 08:10

Unfortunately I don't have skills or other things that would allow me to emigrate. As Mrs8 says Fuck Sad

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 08:10

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Peregrina · 17/07/2018 08:12

I agree with Cailleach, BrexitWife: there is a bedrock of low level xenophobia and racism. The sort of people who will have at least immigrant or black acquaintances and when challenged when sounding off will say ' Oh I don't mean you'. Well, who exactly do you mean then? Well, the ones who come over taking our jobs but won't work, 'blah, blah, blah....' It will have to get sufficiently bad for them, and have somehow to be brought home to them that yes, they did vote for this badness.

I had often wondered how a cultured, educated nation, which was 1920s and 30s Germany, could sink into barbarism, and know seeing how my own country has gone, I feel I know. There were people speaking out in Germany in those days - they were dismissed as scaremongers, and other people only woke up to the fact that those nice neighbours who happened to be Jewish, hadn't actually left of their own volition, when it was too late.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 08:14

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 08:15

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:15

MrsR8 Don't leave it until the day before Brexit
If you're booking, I'd do so for 27 Feb at the latest

I'd expect the penny to drop for a lot of people in the last couple of weeks, as govt emergency prep & storage become more obvious
So, we could have early gridlock

Worst case: govt and / or airlines bump people off booked places, in favour of others

Panic buying probably in the last month too, so those planning to build up supplies, start no later then New Year

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 08:18

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TheElementsSong · 17/07/2018 08:18

I’m with you all 😕

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 08:18

Mrsr8 would you still have the link to that document?

Re leaving, I will look again at booking the ferry around the 15~20 March. (Last time i looked it was too early to book)

One of my steps is to go and see a sollicitor. You can’t take children with you to live abroad wo the agreement of your ex/other parent so I need to know what are the steps there. I dint need to also have the police in my back for abduction.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 08:21

Jim Pickard @PickardJE
A reminder of some of the senior establishment figures who sat on the campaign committee of Vote Leave, which has just been fined by the Electoral Commission:

Liam Fox
Iain Duncan Smith
Dominic Raab
Michael Gove
Boris Johnson
Steve Baker
Chris Grayling
Priti Patel
Lord Lawson

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Peregrina · 17/07/2018 08:21

As well as flights for next year, I also wondered about travel insurance. My policy is underwritten by a Spanish firm, and is due for renewal in August. It will be interesting to see what they offer, and for how long.

BrexitWife · 17/07/2018 08:22

Agree about buying supplies well befire thé leaving date.
Actually some stuff can be bought now. Things like rice, tins, washing products etc... that will keep for years.

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 08:23

RTB - all that lot will swear innocence "I wasn't involved in the day to day running."

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 08:24

Ian Dunt @IanDunt
For the first time I'm starting to think there's going to be no-deal.

There is lots of dawning realisation of this on twitter this morning.

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Childrenofthesun · 17/07/2018 08:25

This is the level of intellectual argument that TM is caving in to from the ERG:

Soubry was damning of her ERG colleagues on the Tory benches and forensic in her dismantling of their arguments, accusing them of putting hundreds of thousands of jobs at risk when they were protected by gold-plated pensions and private incomes. This predictably drew return blue-on-blue fire from the ERG cabal of Edward Leigh, Christopher “Upskirting” Chope, David Davis, Steve Baker, Priti Patel and Bernard Jenkin who were huddled together near the back of the chamber. A true confederacy of dunces. Six MPs in search of a brain cell.

“You ain’t no Margaret Thatcher,” leered Leigh in, what was for him, one of his more intelligent contributions to parliamentary life. Even his colleagues appeared embarrassed by that. All but Jenkin, who was hellbent on seeing how high he could raise the stupidity bar. Having earlier in the day declared that business was far too interested in making money, he now suggested that the way to reconcile just-in-time production with longer border checks was to make sure that lorries set out from the EU several days earlier than they currently did. That way it wouldn’t matter if they got held up.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/who-runs-the-country-the-answer-is-too-awful-to-contemplate

Peregrina · 17/07/2018 08:26

Instead of discarding used dresses and skirts I am saving them for future reworking. The V & A had a good exhibition a couple of years back about 'Fashion on the Ration', where people had done just that - I recall a patchwork dress, as one example. Fortunately, I used to sew a lot so could still turn my hand to it, if necessary.

54321go · 17/07/2018 08:27

{George freeman mp @ GeorgeFreemanMP
I will vote against it. Parliament has important business to do.}
Well there is one who is at least awake to the fact it is important.
I know it is replying late, I have only just looked to see what is happening.
While not so prominent in the UK as neither the 1st or 2nd World wars were actually fought on UK soil it is so humbling to see the way the French look after the graves of so many that died from all around the world to 'rid' the world of tyranny and they act as a reminder that working together is the way forward to peace and prosperity.
I suppose once the UK has left then at least the USA, Russia and EU among others can declare war against it if it is felt necessary.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 08:27

Jo Maugham QC @JolyonMaugham
We don't need a judge led inquiry for the history books. We need Parliamentarians to remember they enacted an advisory referendum which can no longer be relied on.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 08:28

Jessica Elgot @jessicaelgot
Full Electoral Commission report into Vote Leave here. The watchdog says the campaign repeatedly refused to attend interviews

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/244900/Report-of-an-investigation-in-respect-of-Vote-Leave-Limited-Mr-Darren-Grimes-BeLeave-and-Veterans-for-Britain.pdf

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 08:29

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 08:32

A referendum is vote without normal legal protections under British law:

twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1019114112276750336

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:32

I agree that the public would indeed tolerate a far right govt
some would positively welcome it - that 15% or so that has always been hard right authoritarian nationalist

Both Norths, especially Pete, are themselves rightwing nationalists who are anti most immigration, just the respectable kind;
So he is talking about a very rightwing govt indeed
They view the EU as a foreign conspiracy, but Brexit seems to have convoinced them that the UK govt is a worse problem. They are definitely the exception in their knowledge of facts

The British public is very lazy intellectually, unwilling to look at any serious issue in depth,
bread & circuses has worked brilliantly in greatly dumbing down popular discussion

I can see the massive change in the quality of public discourse since even the 1970s
and my NE wc father, who left school on his 14th birthday in the early 1930s, was discussing serious issues as a young adult with his family & friends, who had similar educational disadvantages
In his day, gaining knowledge for yourself and thinking was valued and regarded as what most adults woulld do.
(my mum grew up v well off in the ME, but same story)

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 08:33

Natalie Bennett @natalieben
In the English Civil War (and before), the monarch would dissolve Parliament to get rid of troublesome MPs - appears what is different now is MPs prepared to collude in their own dismissal. Still working to get a #democracy.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 08:34

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Senior government minister on Government attempt to send MPs on their summer holidays early: “Julian Smith (chief whip) is cracking up under the pressure.”

U-turn by 2.30pm. At the latest.

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 08:34

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