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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:34

James Comey. Bloody auto correct.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:39

When things start to unravel they unravel fast.

It feels like things suddenly speeded up.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:43

The Times of London @ thetimes
Sharks are going to head for Britain as sea temperatures rise, an expert has predicted

Bite me.

A headline that makes more sense than anything you've seen today or will see tomorrow.

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Peregrina · 17/07/2018 00:44

I think that May still believes that the rest of the EU will capitulate at the last moment.

If May goes, who will the Tories put in her place?

Did Johnson make his resignation speech?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 00:45

There is no logic to May's actions

She's floundering around, just thinking a day at a time how to stay as PM

  • she has no Brexit plan,
except that the EU should let her pick out her own unicorn
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:49

Ben Stanley @ bdstanley
This is what PiS think about liberal democracy.

This is what Brexit implies.

This is where Trump’s loyalties are.

The story of the last two years has been the story of people discovering what was obvious all along and acting as if nobody ever told us this.

We said it. History may not remember we did, but we did.

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 00:51

Even if the 1922 Committee call a vote on May staying as leader,
she can survive if she keeps the No vote to below 100, maybe even below 120
Yes, she'd look weak, but no worse than now

but would she instead finally accept she's hopelessly out of her depth with Brexit and quit if challenged ?

20nil · 17/07/2018 00:51

I think there is some logic, but it is very flawed. God, what a mess it all is, all of it.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 00:56

I didn't think May would go a week ago.
I really thought there was no chance of a GE despite rumours. But now I don't discount it.

It's all or nothing because May is so weak.

Nothing left to lose by anyone now. All semblance of authority has gone. Civilized debate within the party has been replaced by Tory MPs just shouting at each other.

The Times of London @ thetimes
Salvini attacks EU, hails Putin and calls for cybersecurity cooperation with Russia
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/salvini-attacks-eu-hails-putin-and-calls-for-cybersecurity-cooperation-with-russia-7lfph2kdv
Salvini hails Russia as key ally against mobs and migrants

Say what Project Fear?

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 01:00

The story over the last 2 years is that about half the population of the UK and the USA don't give a damn about liberal democracy
If they're promised that they can keep out the furrin, then they'll close their eyes to any breaches of civilised process.

I always used to think that the rise of Hitler in an advanced country in the1930s was only possible because the population were buying bread with wheelbarrows of currency notes and all their savings were worthless.

I now think that xenophobia & "Blood & Soil" nationalism can drive out all common sense and moral sense once it takes hold.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 01:02

Bigchoc, I'm not sure she can manage even that now.

Maybe she will. I didn't have any doubts til today. Now I'm wobbling.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 01:05

Ask a dozen random people what democracy is and how it works.

You won't get a good answer.

That's why people are happy to turn to blood and soil nationalism. It's simple. And no one taught them about democracy.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 01:09

I include educated liberals in that too btw.

They'll say they believe in democracy cos it's a British value and all that. But ask them much more than that and they'll struggle to answer the question of how it works and how it's an inherent struggle between various forces.

You know that because of the rhetoric of telling people who disagree with you to shut up, that's eminating from the left atm.

They believe in the idea of democracy but they have nfi what they believe in when they don't know how it works. And that undermines it completely.

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 01:10

Salvini attacked EU sanctions and shown he's Russia's man
but hasn't afaik directly attacked the EU as an institution

MrHoolieswaistcoat · 17/07/2018 01:15

I have totally lost any ability to see any humour in this anymore. It’s beyond farcical, you literally couldn’t make it up.
Richard Benyon is my parent’s MP - they are fully paid up Brexit voting Tory members and have had quite a lot of dealings with him personally. I wonder what they are making of his vote. My DM’s view is that she is tired of hearing about Brexit and it will all work out in the end - well, it will for them because they have been retired for nearly 15 years on gold plated pensions.
They don’t have jobs to lose. They don’t have a mortgage.
I am currently in a rehab centre being treated for alcohol addiction and, although it’s been incredibly hard, it was just beginning to get a bit easier.
I am now having the strongest craving for a drink I have had since I came here.
I first became aware of politics around the time Thatcher came to power. I seem to remember a time when there was generally a sense of respect for politicians - even if you didn’t agree with them, there was a general sense that they had some kind of integrity and were genuinely doing what they thought was in the best interests of the country.
This lot are acting like a bunch of squabbling reception kids in the playground.
It’s truly embarrassing to watch.

commonarewe · 17/07/2018 01:15

That's why people are happy to turn to blood and soil nationalism. It's simple. And no one taught them about democracy.

And if people democratically decide that they would quite like to protect themselves and their nation from changes they find unwelcome, without giving a damn about the frightful simplicity of their desires, what exactly is your solution? A visit to a democracy re-education centre, perhaps?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 01:25

ComRes poll for the Daily Mirror

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-voting-brits-would-quit-12925014

39% Just leave without a deal
25% Ask for a time extension
20% May's plan (whatever that is now !) which is thought to be soft Brexit (but isn't)

51% of Tory voters want a no-deal Brexit, compared with 26% of Labour supporters.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 01:27

Simple solutions, disregarding everything but the aim
The end justifies the means …
The world saw this in the 1930s

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 01:30

but some would say
If German Jews had been expelled from Germany early enough, then Hitler would never have come to power and the horrible crimes would never have happened

Same logic:
If you don't let me do something nasty now, then I'll do something later that's absolutely horrific

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 01:39

Zoe Williams in the Graun:
"Brexit has hit peak confusion."

mathanxiety · 17/07/2018 04:35

RTB
If there is no point continuing to support the government over the deal, does that mean there is no point in supporting May anymore???

That is key question.
No wonder Theresa may wants to shut up shop and scuttle off on a walking tour.

The next question is, assuming TM is toast, do the non-ERG MPs have enough people ready to write to the 1922 Committee, and do they have a horse ready for the leadership race?

mathanxiety · 17/07/2018 06:15

No deal has always been the default. Hence the concerted ERG effort this week, after TM finally nailed her insipid colours to the mast and finally produced a starting point for a conversation (even if that conversation was going to be short and consisting entirely of the word 'Non').

Pete North @PeteNorth303**
That ship has already sailed. A no deal Brexit will bury the Tories and the public won't tolerate a hard right government run by Moggists

I disagree with this.
I think the public has been craving a hard right government for many, many years and for a good while the momentum will be with the Right. Many aspects of Hard Right policies/authoritarian mindset have already been trialed. The attitudes behind them have been widely broadcast. (As noted by Fintan O'Toole).

mathanxiety · 17/07/2018 06:19

Duncan Morrow @ duncan_morrow
The UK govt has now sided against its own Dec. 2017 backstop to save itself from the Brexiteers. Essentially the fragile and hard-won Good Friday Agreement has been unilaterally abandoned without any local consultation. It could be a new watershed in British-Irish history.

Angry

Do you remember the percentage of NI voters who came out to support the GFA in the 90s, Sammy Wilson? Democracy, eh?

mathanxiety · 17/07/2018 06:29

And if people democratically decide that they would quite like to protect themselves and their nation from changes they find unwelcome, without giving a damn about the frightful simplicity of their desires, what exactly is your solution? A visit to a democracy re-education centre, perhaps?

That is the best idea you've had yet, commonarewe

An example of what happens when people decide it is important to protect the country against immigrants with darker skin than theirs, and who speak a language other than English is the current staffing problem in the NHS and many other issues plaguing the health service. The public has been led to believe that the problem is £350 million a week going to Brussels, and immigration. But in actual fact, immigration benefits the economy enormously - immigrant taxes pay for the NHS just as long established residents' taxes do - and immigration means the NHS is adequately staffed.

So YY to re-education, for starters.

Because the reasons people find changes unwelcome need to be examined, and the facts about change need to be illuminated.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 07:05

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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