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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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Mistigri · 03/04/2018 13:08

Checks on foodstuffs, agricultural products and livestock are the real reason why the UK needs to stay in the SM (if you believe Richard North and I am inclined to do so). Customs union isn't enough to prevent physical border checks in NI.

I still think this means staying in the SM is likely but perhaps this is unreasonable optimism. The only possible alternative seems to be crashing out without a deal, because anything in between (i.e. a deal which results in NI remaining in the SM with the rUK outside) would bring down the government.

JWIM · 03/04/2018 13:15

I agree with Misti but expect that we will end up with an agreement post 'exit' that will have a different name but equate to SM/CU applying to the whole of the UK.

frankiestein401 · 03/04/2018 13:26

Corbyn could have gone to a wide variety of Jewish groups that don't call for the destruction of Israel
The group he chose is about as typical of Jews as the BNP is of British non-Jews

perhaps someone could point him to an acceptable group that criticises Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians?

if the group he chose is atypical because of this then that illustrates a much bigger problem.

at some point in the future, hopefully in my lifetime, the Israeli state will be in court accounting for its treatment of the Palestinians.

DGRossetti · 03/04/2018 14:53

One time subject of these threads, Nadine Dorries has got her name on the BBC by claiming that HIGNFY is "too viscous" for women.

Not quite sure she's really though that through.

What I do know is that after her last appearance (well, we can hope) she tweeted about "getting her shotgun" upon seeing Reginald D. Hunter chatting to her daughter. Well, I say chatting. Hunters' version is she jammed the two together in a hasty introduction and then went slunk away to make her tweet.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43630295

Dorries of course is one of the dimmer members of parliament. If not society. She seems to forget what she's supposed to be for and against sometimes.

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2018 15:14

Its in response to this DGRossetti

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/apr/03/host-have-i-got-news-for-you-hislop-merton-women-presenters
Women too modest to host Have I Got News For You, Hislop claims
BBC show’s team captains say low number of guest slots given to female politicians is because they refuse to appear

Also this article on the subject:
amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/shortcuts/2018/apr/03/so-female-politicians-dont-want-to-host-hignfy-theres-a-very-good-reason?__twitter_impression=true
So female politicians don’t want to host HIGNFY? There’s a very good reason
The implication that women are too cowardly to host the quiz show is ridiculous – they’re busy in a ceaseless battle against trivialisation

And this from Marina Hyde

Marina Hyde @marinahyde
Actual LOL at the HIGNFY guys’ belief that the reason women don’t want to go on their show is because of some innate natural reticence, as opposed to having been able to see, since forever, how women always end up being dealt with on the show.
I wonder why SO many funny women go on @frankieboyle 's New World Order, as an example. Could it be because they are actually allowed to be funny on it?

Frankie Boyle did comment on this thread btw. Which is interesting, that he acknowledges there is a problem which is quite something to contrast to the lack of awareness of Hislop.

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RedToothBrush · 03/04/2018 15:15

Dorries is away with the fairies. But I also think she has something of a point on this.

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DGRossetti · 03/04/2018 15:21

Tx for the background RTB. It's a shame it's Dorries that was used as the strapline - she's not really a sympathetic angle on the story.

Saw Rachel Paris (from "The Mash Report") on Friday. Definitely DGRs tip for stardom in 2018.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 03/04/2018 15:33

Ah, that probably explains this Anna Soubry tweet
A charming #IanHislop called & invited me on the panel of #HIGNFY (again). I declined not because I’m a woman but because I’m a politician & not daft! I offered to present it but he turned me down! I’m still available boys

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DGRossetti · 03/04/2018 17:24

I see there's a failure in European air traffic control leading to 15,000 flights being delayed ...

you'd think that'd sound warning bells in the "we can do it all alone" brigade ....

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2018 17:29

Failure or cyber attack?

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RedToothBrush · 03/04/2018 18:19

Henry Mance @ henrymance
BREAKING: Not Ukip apparently. It has raised £370,000 to avert bankruptcy.
I am also told that - brace yourselves - it probably won't be holding a fourth leadership election in two years.
Instead Gerard Batten - Islam critic - has agreed to stay on for a while, perhaps a year. Full story here:
t.co/fLY6KhprxZ
Exciting Ukip headlines of the future - Ukip loses seats in local elections; Ukip accuses Theresa May of betrayal; and of course, Former Ukip donor Arron Banks threatens to set up new party
UKIP’s Gerard Batten confirms FT story that he is offering to stay on for 12 months to delay a leadership election that “we cannot afford”
Ukip leadership elections apparently cost over £30,000. Which is actually very cheap compared to other TV comedy.

We can't afford an election at this time. You might want to remember that one.

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DGRossetti · 03/04/2018 18:24

Failure or cyber attack?

Without being arsed to dig any deeper, the maxim about malice and incompetence should suffice.

In other news, I see that Porton Down have quietly let slip they have no idea where the agent which poisoned Skripal came from ... which either clears Russia, or suggests that Russia now has a march on the UK when it comes to party drugs Hmm. Still, experts, eh ? We all know about them now, don't we ?

Speaking of Porton Down, checking my (very) old photo album reminds me that I have been there once in the 1990s. I know there was a military base I had to give 2 weeks notice of visiting along with my cars reg. number that was near Amesbury, but I had forgotten it was Porton Down. Excellent catering facilities, by the way - or least they had.

DGRossetti · 03/04/2018 18:25

Which is actually very cheap compared to other TV comedy.

There's always kickstarter, or (appropriately) DRiP ....

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 18:26

UKIP avoid bankruptcy

Their members raised 300k plus the 175k legal fees were paid "by other means" - which were unspecified Hmm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/03/ukip-avoids-insolvency-after-raising-money-to-cover-175000-libel-bill

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 18:30

A reassuring outbreak of kindness:
#LoveAMuslimDay to counter the planned “Punish a Muslim Day”.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/03/uk-communities-take-action-against-punish-a-muslim-day-letter

LondonMum8 · 03/04/2018 18:39

175k legal fees were paid "by other means" - which were unspecified hmm

Arron/Vlad to the rescue.

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2018 18:41

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-border-wall-mexico-military-secure-immigrants-caravan-a8287181.html
Trump wants to use US military to secure Mexican border until wall is built

aka The military to be used to hunt down immigrants.

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RedToothBrush · 03/04/2018 18:52

Jacob Rees-Mogg @JacobReesMogg
As the EU wants to share sensitive data with Algeria it would be odd for it not to want to do the same with the UK
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmeuleg/301-xxi/30112.htm#_idTextAnchor026

Steve Peers @StevePeers
The EU has said that it will share personal data with the UK - subject to an "adequate level of protection" for personal data, which the ECJ has said means "essentially equivalent" laws to the EU's.

Here's the relevant part of the EU guidelines on the future relationship with the UK, adopted in March. The draft negotiation mandate with Algeria (which he links to) says the same thing. Rees-Mogg is trying to build a "wicked EU" straw man.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 19:19

What is considered odd, according to statements by
e.g. the German Brexit coordinator that I posted earlier, is that the UK has still not responded to the EU draft withdrawal agreement.

The withdrawal agreement has to be finalised by end September, or there won't be time for the European Parliament and the 38 national & regional parliaments to examine and approve it, before Brexit.

If the govt is expecting the EU to roll over at the 11:59 pm on 29 March 2019,
then they must also be expecting a 6-month extension of A50, to give time for the approval process

Or are the govt not thinking at all, as usual ? Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 19:20

All the paranoid & aggressive statements by leading Brexit politicians is not making E27 politicians any fonder of the UK,
or more likely to offer cake.

mathanxiety · 03/04/2018 21:14

Do you have a link to the Porton Down comment that they have no idea of the provenance of the Skripal nerve agent, DGRosetti?

mathanxiety · 03/04/2018 21:29

TomR - in response to the report of a trade deal with Australia that will involve importing beef raised with growth hormones.

The beef will be available in NI. There will have to be border checks to make sure it does not enter Ireland (a member of the EU) for sale or for sending on to other EU states.

mathanxiety · 03/04/2018 21:37

Sorry for duplicating the response about the NI border- phone is jumping around.

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