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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 19:55

I think we should encourage whistleblowers of all level. The trouble is they do tend to come out when people feel they have nothing left to lose. Few go on record when they are benefitting from x,y or z.

I mean not just at this level but also at local level in local democracy. Councils are utterly rife with it. Far from being transparent, councils which have a majority party and have been for years and years are particularly bad. Decisions are made in party meetings well before they are ever a matter of public record. Its unhealthy. As for planning... don't even get me started on that one.

Its all about self interest rather than public service.

May is the ultimate example in how her position is put first, then the tories then the country. But she is only an example of thousands and thousands.

And its not just in politics, its in all sorts of public and private companies. People KNOW what is going on as they deal with it every day. They turn a blind eye, as long as they get their paycheck or their promotion or their position.

There is very little incentive to whistleblow in most situations. Its looked on badly by society.

Sadly we are all to blame for this.

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SwedishEdith · 26/03/2018 19:56

Place marking - thanks for new thread.

mathanxiety · 26/03/2018 19:57

I suspect it is developments in the US inquiry that have prompted the whistleblowing.

However, it may well be some sort of damascene conversion/ parting of the veil / sudden insight into what they were working on, based on a conversation or a memory. I don't think you can discount the personal element.

lonelyplanetmum · 26/03/2018 20:19

Oh as a post script to the loss of now two European orchestras.

As well as the loss of prestige, visitors and the 15 players and annual opportunities from the European Union Youth Orchestra, the teaching and administrative staff is estimated at a loss of 200 jobs altogether.

A small splash in the total absurdity I know, but devastating for those affected.

SingaSong12 · 26/03/2018 20:21

prettybird It's interesting how little people know about the history of EFFA, EEC. We were already members when I was at school and we didn't cover it at all. I did at university, but only because I did the legal aspect. I read up a bit for the referendum but really I only looked at the EU and U.K. now and for the future.

frumpety · 26/03/2018 20:24

Plonking myself down on this thread because you are so patient when I go off into an alternative reality Smile

DGRossetti · 26/03/2018 20:41

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Sostenueto · 26/03/2018 20:42

.

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 20:44

Paul Brand @ paulbranditv
Understand Luciana Berger made impassioned speech at PLP and got a standing ovation from everyone except shadow cabinet. Many other MPs made speeches against antisemitism with one MP describing it as ‘most emotional and powerful PLP I’ve ever seen’.

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IrenetheQuaint · 26/03/2018 20:49
Gin
prettybird · 26/03/2018 20:53

Singasong - you're so right: modern history - and by that I mean post WW2 - is woefully lacking Sad

I only learnt that the UK got any even more Marshall Aid than Germany as a result of BigChocFrenzy on these threads Shock Yet I was taught that the reason that Germany became such an economic powerhouse was due to the Marshall Aid and the lessons that had been learnt from WW1 of the risks of "punishing" the defeated. I suppose it would have been a bit embarrassing to admit that the UK squandered its Marshall Aid on trying to cling on desperately unsuccessfully to its crumbling Empire BlushShockAngry

TheElementsSong · 26/03/2018 20:56

Thanks for the new thread RTB and I'm just shaking my head at how mad the world seems to be.

Sostenueto · 26/03/2018 21:01

I will not be on for a little while as I have to have some essential treatment so I'll take this opportunity to wish you all a happy chocy easter holidays and thanks red et al for the informative threads.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/03/2018 21:04

Yup, the Uk received more Marshall AId than any other country

  • but myths grew up about it, to cover up how this generosity from a then enlightened USA was squandered.

A US official wrote later how the German & French govts gave them detailed plans about how the money would be used to rebuild infrastructure and industry,
whereas the UK sent a letter waxing about future imperial glory, no details of how to get there.

Sounds familiar ?

btw, re Germany's amazing rise after WW2 :

10% of its population had been killed,
it had lost one third of its territory,
had one third of its housing stock destroyed or severely damaged
20% of its population were refugees
and its GDP was below that of pre-WW1

The UK started from a much better place and should have become the industrial powerhouse of Europe
but delusions of national glory got in the way

BigChocFrenzy · 26/03/2018 21:07

The UK actually created EFTA, as a rival to the then Common Market.

However, the much looser EFTA structure and the much smaller size of the trading bloc meant that the UK was soon desperate to join the much more effective CM instead.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/03/2018 21:10

If time runs out, the UK may be pleading to join the organisation it originally created
... the one it left because the much bigger European Common Market was so much better for trade Confused

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 21:12

Peter Geoghegan @ peterkgeoghegan
Cambridge Analytica ‘spread fake news and misinformation...to coerce and mislead voters’ says Chris Wylie. Says Obama online comparing ‘completely different’
Wylie says that Breitbart UK was set up as part of Steve Bannon’s policy of trying to capture the culture of ‘the cultural leader’, the UK, which would then influence US politics
Interesting point. When @gavinsblog and I covered 2016 US election met people of Trump voters citing Brexit.
Cambridge Analytica did work for Ukip, says Chris Wylie. Alas claims Arron Banks company Eldon Insurance used CA as cover for t.co/ke6g3CNFs4 work
‘Vote Leave set up BeLeave. All our email addresses were set up Vote Leave,’ Sanni tells Frontline. Directly contradicts Dominic Cummings who says Leave noticed what a great job BeLeave was doing (despite only raising £107 before Vote Leave ‘gave’ BL £625k)

Sanni says Vote Leave head of compliance William Norton set up BeLeave as unincorporated association w/Sanni as treasurer. Then told would be getting almost £700k. Sanni asked if he could get money for his train fare. Was told all the money would be going straight to AggregateIQ

BeLeave had just over 1,000 emails when it was given £625k, supposedly for its social media.

Reality Check @ complyorcry
Why isn't @HMRCgovuk investigating the VAT and expenses being put through company owned by Arron Banks? How can those expenses be legitimate business claims?

I think if HMRC or the Serious Fraud Office or the National Crime Agency start getting involved, its a big deal. There are certain leads from all this which could lead them to getting involved at some point.

Do I think there is potentially scope here. This is the wiki entry for the SFO which gives you a quick explanation for its remit:
The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) is a non-ministerial government department of the Government of the United Kingdom department that investigates and prosecutes serious or complex fraud and corruption in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The SFO is accountable to the Attorney General for England and Wales, and was established by the Criminal Justice Act 1987,[1] an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Section 2 of the Criminal Justice Act 1987 grants the SFO special compulsory powers to require any person (or business/bank) to provide any relevant documents (including confidential ones) and answer any relevant questions including ones about confidential matters. The SFO is the principal enforcer of the Bribery Act 2010, which has been designed to encourage good corporate governance and enhance the reputation of the City of London and the UK as a safe place to do business. Its jurisdiction does not extend to Scotland where fraud and corruption are investigated by Police Scotland through their Specialist Crime Division, and prosecutions are undertaken by the Economic Crime Unit of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service.

And the NCA (May wants to fold the SFO into the NCA):
It is the UK's lead agency against organised crime; human, weapon and drug trafficking; cyber crime; and economic crime that goes across regional and international borders, but can be tasked to investigate any crime. The NCA has a strategic role in which it looks at the bigger picture across the UK, analysing how criminals are operating and how they can be disrupted. To do this it works closely with regional organised crime units (ROCUs), the Serious Fraud Office, as well as individual police forces.

Now if Mueller does start to find links to the UK this is where it should be headed.

We have been looking at the Electoral Commission and the Information Commissioner Office, but they can't handle it, they don't have the powers, and it looks by the day thats they don't have a wide enough remit.

To speculate here: if you have a combination of data breaches, breaking of electoral law, money going places it shouldn't - which include admissions of potential money laundering on camera and an international connection where do you think this should go?

Cadwalladr is calling for a public inquiry. I'm not convinced. Not least because Theresa May set up both the child abuse and grenfell inquiries and look how well both are going in terms of public confidence. I think if they have the evidence and more and more is starting to build, thats where you should aim to get any investigation.

We shall see.

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RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 21:26

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-gloucestershire-43538930?__twitter_impression=true
Second Forest of Dean councillor resigns in golliwog row

Battle of the golliwog in Gloucestershire. An example of protecting your own from a code of conduct?

It amazes me that a council oversees conduct itself. There is no independence here really. Nor is there any consistency on a national level. This doesn't go unnoticed by locals in any area. And because there is no confidence in this kind of system, people lose confidence in local government. And since people can not tell the difference between local government, national government and eu government this is a failure and loss of trust in democracy.

Its stories like these that lead to 'eu bans golliwogs' type myths.

Restoration in faith in democracy, is a grass roots up type venue. Rulings by 'the establishment' alone will only go so far.

It also needs to be thought about on this level. What people see on their door steps and in their back yards.

I do wonder if there is a correlation between areas which have been solidly one colour at local level for many, many years and the leave vote. I'd be fascinated to see if there was any research on this.

Its about the bloody bin collections as much as EU presidents.

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 26/03/2018 21:27

Mark Di Stefano 🤙🏻
@MarkDiStef
It is absolutely RAMMED here for the joint-whistleblower event with Cambridge Analytica’s Chris Wylie vs Vote Leave’s Shahmir Sanni in London tonight. Will tweet anything fun

mobile.twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/978363961430151171

[...]
Mark Di Stefano 🤙🏻
@MarkDiStef
Stanley Johnson - yes, that’s the UK foreign secretary’s father - is here and asking first question and wants to know whether the Cambridge Analytica funding could have come from Russia and be used as kompromat.

[photos on thread]
What reality is this.

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 21:30

Esther Webber @ estwebber
More criticism of delegated powers tonight - former Commons clerk Lord Lisvane says we're getting "punch drunk" on Henry VIII powers and Lord Judge says "scrutiny being diminished to extinction"
Brexit Minister Lord Callanan signals govt is open to further movement on delegated powers but insists, on sub-delegation, "it can be an appropriate course of action"

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WifeofDarth · 26/03/2018 21:38
Wine
RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 21:49

Tom Munday @ tommundycs
Inch by inch, the Conservatives are understanding how to communicate on social media.

Ahh you can't beat a good old election leaflet can you?

If they aren't careful they'll turn in kippers. They sure look like them.

Sunder Katwala @ sundersays
"Havering in Danger" 'ruled by Mayor Khan, will resemble inner city areas like Hackney, Newham, Camden and Barking, rather than a trad part of Essex'. Do Conservatives who've talked about outreach to minorities support this? Has anyone criticised it?

My (ongoing) test for consistency on those who claim to oppose prejudice in politics: do you oppose prejudice against your opponents, as well as against your allies? Do you also have the courage to challenge allies, not just opponents, who cross the line?

I found quite a few Conservatives who were privately (very) critical of the Zac Goldsmith 2016 campaign did not want to say much, if anything, in public. Our 2017 fringe heard several party members say failure to have any public discussion of that exacerbated reputational damage.

My view is the Havering message, unchallenged, undermines effort of people like @SamGyimah @BinitaMP @JamesCleverly @ZehraZaidi @sajidjavid @GavinBarwell Creates 'new baggage' for a party with reputation issue. See my 2017 Cons fringe reflections

Labour rightly under much pressure over its policies & culture on tackling anti-semitism. One cultural difference between the two parties is that Lab backbenchers have spoken out; Conservative criticism if/when there are transgressions on their own side mostly private and v. muted.

Don't rock the boat. Don't question your own team. This is all that is wrong in politics. Criticism is to be a traitor. That is unhealthy.

Politics starts at grass roots like this.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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Dobby1sAFreeElf · 26/03/2018 22:15

That is one of the leaflets going out near me (all the Havering ones have a similar message it seems). There's a bit of Shock but we are one of the highest voting leave areas in the country and the infamous T shirt man (the guy with something like we voted you out now leave) was pictured outside our town hall, so its largely mood music. No need to vote UKIP when your local party is to the right of them. Talking of UKIP - current temporary UKIP leader Batten is based here too.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 26/03/2018 22:32

And ironically enough our MP Andrew Rosindell was one of the BBC Twitter mentions having a go at Cable for his conference speech asking how dare he accuse leave voters of being racist, then puts his face and name literally to these leaflets. Pot, meet kettle.

Peregrina · 26/03/2018 22:39

I think we should encourage whistleblowers of all level............ Few go on record when they are benefitting from x,y or z. I mean not just at this level but also at local level in local democracy. Councils are utterly rife with it.

Absolutely, whatever party gets a long standing monopoly. Even if Lord Buckethead got a party together, which controlled a council for umpteen years, they would be the same.