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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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VivaKondo · 03/04/2018 21:45

Has anyone seen that?
www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/94086/britain-will-strike-‘-least-two-major-trade-deals’-during

So TWO trade deals. Two vs the 600 and something the uk has thanks to the EU.
And that’s supposed to a be a win??

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 21:59

Excellent new about Dan Jarvis:
he will be able to stay on as an MP if he is elected as S. Yorkshire’s first mayor.

He's a possible contender as next Labour leader, or the one after

Motheroffourdragons · 03/04/2018 22:46

This reply has been withdrawn

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OlennasWimple · 03/04/2018 22:58

I think Andy Burnham chose to stand down rather than have two jobs. I can't see how Sadiq Khan could have done any other job alongside mayor (I think even Boris cut back on his columns and stuff)

I think the late Ian Paisley probably holds the record for the most concurrent positions: at one point he was leader of the DUP (the party he founded), First Minister, MP for North Antrim, an MEP, and leader of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster (which he also founded).

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 23:33

One Year on

Report - gloomy Brexit outlook, too little being done, by UK business too

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/chronic-uncertainty-defines-the-brexit-process-new-academic-report-reveals/

Mistigri · 04/04/2018 06:56

As a general rule I think it is wrong that anyone should do two big elected jobs - their constituents are being short-changed.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 04/04/2018 07:56

Re: failure vs cyber attack - there have been an awful lot of cyber attacks happening in the US recently

Sarah Kendzior
@sarahkendzior
This week's US infrastructure attacks:

  • Atlanta city services paralyzed due to ransomware attack; deadline for ransom is today
  • Baltimore 911 dispatch system hacked
  • Boeing hit by serious virus, metastasizing quickly

In January, I wrote a long article on Russia's previous and ongoing cyberattacks on US infrastructure (link: amp.fastcompany.com/40515682/the-other-scary-foreign-hacking-threat-trump-is-ignoring )

In February, I wrote about the strange false nuclear strike alerts, and possibility of infrastructure hacks leading to war

www.fastcompany.com/40524460/could-false-alerts-and-fake-news-start-a-nuclear-war

Much like Atlanta and Baltimore, Denver's core online city services and parts of its 911 system are no longer working, but they say it's not a hack (link: www.denverite.com/core-city-services-go-offline-denver-50142/amp )

Atlanta
Baltimore
Chicago (Boeing HQ)
Denver

How you doing, El Paso? #infrastructureweek

Just adding this to the thread. On Colorado:

Oh. Earlier this month the Colorado Dept of Transportation was also hit with a ransomware attack and the National Guard was called in (link: www.google.com/amp/s/www.9news.com/amp/article%3fsection=news&subsection=local&topic=next&headline=more-malicious-activity-on-cdot-computers-reported&contentId=73-524533756 )

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 04/04/2018 08:11

Carole Cadwalladr and Andrew Neil have been sparring. It's pretty extensive so can't copy it all over but essentially, Andrew Neil has been disparaging of the Guardian's investigation into CA, citing a legal letter written by AIQ as proof the whole thing is biased and a "ideologically-driven investigation" (is that just a fancier way of saying witch hunt?). This has been dismissed by Cadwalladr as standard practice and in no way a refutation of Guardian's investigation.

Tim Atkin
@timatkin
Replying to @MajorGrubert @afneil
It's a lawyers' holding letter. It's not a "dagger to the heart" of the investigation.

Andrew Neil
@afneil
More Andrew Neil Retweeted Tim Atkin
The lawyer's letter was immediately accepted as the basis for a pretty comprehensive correction. Maybe stick to the wine-tasting?

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
Dear Andrew, we published this after the "correction". It's now been reported by news orgs all over the world. What's your dog in this fight? Why you so keen to destroy credibility of a year-long investigation that is now the subject of legal inquiries?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/31/aggregateiq-canadian-tech-brexit-data-riddle-cambridge-analytica

You must be familiar with the way legal letters & the media work. What I don't understand is why you are so keen to knock work that has led to investigations by the Electoral Commission & the ICO. Can you explain?

Rupert Myers
@RupertMyers
Replying to @carolecadwalla
All of Andrew’s tweets and retweets on the subject in the last five days take a very particular view of the Guardian’s journalism re. Cambridge Analytica

twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/981183739878367233

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
More Carole Cadwalladr Retweeted Rupert Myers
Top quality impartial commentary from the BBC's @afneil. I urge you to keep up this vital work retweeting @GuidoFawkes.

To be clear, there was no correction. You know how it works, Andrew. Lawyers send a letter. You print bits of it. You carry on. We published this the same day which underscores and reinforces all our reporting on the subject so far.
But I'm afraid that this is a problem. It's your job to understand stories like this. And you clearly don't. Can we help?
I can't help but question the impartiality of the anchor of one but of the BBC's principal politics programmes. Here he is re-tweeting an ideologically driven smear campaign led by @GuidoFawkes. The business partner of @voteleave's CEO, @matthewelliott.
Isn't there a BBC code? How do these tweets fall within it? Also: isn't it just embarrassing? The kind explanation would be that @afneil literally doesn't understand the internet. The alternative is that he is wilfully rubbishing the story because of his own bias. Which is it?

Listen, I don't agree with blanket BBC bashing. But I'm forced to make an exception for @afneil. He's clearly in breach of the BBC's own code. And, apart from that, he's doing his viewers a massive disservice.
Andrew! This is about how the internet has undermined the very basis of our parliamentary democracy. Why not get @DamianCollins on if you don't understand? Or literally anyone but @GuidoFawkes. Who is a business partner of one of the organisations under investigation.

Lol. The Bad Boys of Brexit is the gift that keeps on giving. Here's @Arron_banks talking about the time @afneil invited him to meet some potential pro-Brexit donors at his private society, the Addison Club.

twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/981303829680545792

I also hadn't realised that @afneil is the chairman of the Spectator. Whose deputy editor is married to Dom Cummings, @vote_leave's chief strategist. Britain. Politics. Power. It's a small, small, small, small world.

twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/981318127106523137

mathanxiety · 04/04/2018 08:22

From the Guardian:
Aitkenhead said: “We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify it was a military-grade nerve agent. We have not verified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific information to the government, who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions that they have come to...”

...A UK government spokesman played down the significance of Aitkenhead’s remarks. He said: “We have been clear from the very beginning that our world-leading experts at Porton Down identified the substance used in Salisbury as a novichok.

“This is only one part of the intelligence picture. As the prime minister has set out in a number of statements to the Commons since 12 March, this includes our knowledge that within the last decade Russia has investigated ways of delivering nerve agents probably for assassination – and as part of this programme has produced and stockpiled small quantities of novichoks; Russia’s record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations; and our assessment that Russia views former intelligence officers as targets.

“It is our assessment that Russia was responsible for this brazen and reckless act and, as the international community agrees, there is no other plausible explanation.”

However, two weeks ago Boris Johnson was asked by an interviewer on Deutsche Welle, Germany’s public international broadcaster, how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly.

I posted this upthread:
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43606085
"However, this doesn't change the facts of the matter: the attempted assassination of two people on British soil, for which there is no alternative conclusion other than that the Russian state was culpable."

...That is odd wording. It is not an assertion of fact.

It is an admission of guesswork.

The international community no doubt has reasons of its own to hop aboard the bandwagon. But Deutsche Welle is right to ask about the speed with which the finger was pointed at Russia, and of course Boris Johnson has once again been demonstrated to be an irresponsible loose cannon not fit for his job. He took his cue from the reckless TM however.

Corbyn otoh has come out ahead in this matter, imo, and his references to other instances of jumping to the wrong conclusion were appropriate.

Hopefully, Aitkenhead won't come to the sticky end that David Kelly did for digging in and not co-operating with the government line.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/04/2018 09:09

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howabout · 04/04/2018 09:18

Bit of background from the Guardian on why Dan Jarvis is not initially intending to stand down as an MP elected Mayor. Seems pretty reasonable.

"... If elected mayor in May he will initially have no power and no resources, and no salary as mayor either. Jarvis signals that, if the mayoralty becomes a fully-established post (like the ones in Manchester or Birmingham), he will at that point stand down as an MP."

DGRossetti · 04/04/2018 10:22

Report - gloomy Brexit outlook, too little being done, by UK business too

well that report can really fuck off Hmm what is business supposed to do when we still - still - have no idea what the final deal is going to look like. Any report with that kind of stance is simply waiting to be used at some future point to shift the blame for the inevitable clusterfuck Brexit has to be.

Oh, it's businesses fault - they didn't prepare well enough

mrsreynolds · 04/04/2018 10:39

You can almost see the daily heil headlines now eh DG?

DGRossetti · 04/04/2018 10:46

You can almost see the daily heil headlines now eh DG?

I think Daily Mail headlines are smelt rather than read.

Drifting, slightly, there's a thread elsewhere where the OP asked "what was so bad about the 70s" - running to several hundred replies.

If we take the postings on that thread in good faith Hmm all of a sudden a lot is explained. The general consensus seems to be that the 70s were fab and groovy ... with only three occurrences of "IRA" (and one of those was in "aspirational"). Looks like we'll have to relive them to remind ourselves and teach others what it was like.

Mistigri · 04/04/2018 11:00

"... If elected mayor in May he will initially have no power and no resources, and no salary as mayor either. Jarvis signals that, if the mayoralty becomes a fully-established post (like the ones in Manchester or Birmingham), he will at that point stand down as an MP."

In that case - fair enough. It would be a shame though if talented MPs move out of Westminster at a time when central government control is greater than ever before and when Brexit risks increasing that centralisation.

lonelyplanetmum · 04/04/2018 11:53

I have taken the DC on holiday at the moment so catching up on thread intermittently. If anyone mentions the 1970s being great I refer them to the photographer Nick Hedges..

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/nostalgia/25-pictures-show-brutal-reality-10862542.amp

EmilyAlice · 04/04/2018 12:33

Do you think the seventies were worse than the eighties though? Yes there was a lot wrong in the seventies, but I hated the eighties more with Thatcher, the destruction of nationalised industries and the unions and the greed of people buying up utilities. Terrible things happened in the seventies and I wouldn’t want to diminish the awfulness of any of it, but it didn’t feel as divided as the eighties.
My children were small in the seventies, we both worked and were vaguely hippyish in a Good Life sort of way plus I had the wonderful experience of being part of the emergent women’s movement. Maybe that colours my view.
We had more money in the eighties but it felt as if a lot of things I held dear were being systematically attacked.
What I hate about threads like the one about the seventies is that people think their own childhood experience is how things were for everyone. No we did not all eat sodding Angel Delight.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/04/2018 12:43

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

prettybird · 04/04/2018 13:06

We emigrated to NZ in 1974 because the UK seemed in such a bad place: Oil crisis, 3 day week, power cuts, bin strikes, IMF, devaluation, currency restrictions.... Sad People forget that we begged asked to join the EEC as it was then and when we were finally allowed in, joined as the "sick man of Europe" Confused

ok we came back 2 years later as NZ was too parochial at the time but not sure we would today in similar circumstances Wink

EmilyAlice · 04/04/2018 13:32

That’s interesting prettybird because although I vividly remember all the strikes and shortages, it didn’t seem to last that long. The country was poor, we needed to join the common market certainly, but it doesn’t define the whole decade for me. It felt to me like a time when people still wanted to change society for the better and were prepared to be politically active rather than the “me first” greed of later decades. We were living in the socialist republic of South Yorkshire so maybe that is why I view it more positively. By the eighties we had moved to true blue Toryland. 😨

Mistigri · 04/04/2018 13:53

What I hate about threads like the one about the seventies is that people think their own childhood experience is how things were for everyone. No we did not all eat sodding Angel Delight.

I think people's memories are also heavily coloured by "group think" - "the seventies were unremittingly dreadful" has become one of those things that people just believe because they have read or heard it so many times. If you look at GDP growth in the seventies it doesn't look hugely different to what went before or came after (except that there was a brief recession, the first time annual growth had been negative since the war years). What did happen was that the UK started to slip backwards versus other European countries and I think there was a consequent decline in the national sense of self-worth, that was cured by Thatcherism (because nothing makes a country feel better about itself than ganging up on miners and Argentinian sailors).

I also agree that your experience of the 70s probably depends a lot on class and location. It was in many ways a tougher time for DH's working class north midlands family than for my middle class London family.

Mind you we really did eat angel delight, even in the medja luvvies enclave that was 70s and 80s Ealing ;)

DGRossetti · 04/04/2018 13:57

even in the medja luvvies enclave that was 70s and 80s Ealing ;)

waves from Harrow Smile

Mistigri · 04/04/2018 13:57

With regard to activism I certainly remember people around me being more politically active in the 1980s, but that was primarily for the obvious reason that I was at school in the 1970s whereas I was at uni in the 1980s.

EmilyAlice · 04/04/2018 14:01

😀 Mistigri Butterscotch with tinned pears?
I also think the right-wing press has exaggerated the awfulness of the seventies to compare it unfavourably with the Glorious Revolution of Thatcherism. The zeitgeist of the eighties has damaged the UK to a far greater extent than the seventies ever did imo.

EmilyAlice · 04/04/2018 14:03

I was in the student protest movement in the late sixties and active party politically and in the feminist movement in the seventies. It does make a difference to how you see things.