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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
54
SwedishEdith · 05/04/2018 16:36

And yet Glenda Jackson's son is Dan Hodges - which seems so odd.

mathanxiety · 05/04/2018 22:05

TomRavenscroft - how about Steve Baker moving up on the rails?

I suspect Rees-Mogg will be the next PM in all but name however.

mybrainhurtsalot · 05/04/2018 22:22

I just read a Guardian article about perceptions of climate change and it had this intriguing point

“There’s also a strong correlation between awareness of the expert consensus, that humans are causing global warming, and concern about the issue. This suggests that when people are aware that experts agree, they accept the consensus and realize we need to address the problem. This is consistent with research finding that the expert consensus is a ‘gateway belief’ leading to public support for climate action.”

I wonder if this would also be true for Brexit?

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 05/04/2018 23:26

from a purely stats and no local knowledge viewpoint this is very interesting:
Heyhouses (Fylde) result:

CON: 58.1% (+11.5)
LAB: 17.9% (-13.3)
LDEM: 12.2% (-10.0)
GRN: 11.8% (+11.8)

Con HOLD.

also this one, but more for shift
Milford (New Forest) result:

CON: 76.4% (-3.3)
LDEM: 14.5% (+14.5)
LAB: 9.1% (-11.2)

Con HOLD.

both from @britainelects

DrivenToDespair · 06/04/2018 01:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 06/04/2018 04:29

Equally bad is Leadsom but she is hanging around and is clearly a front for others.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_2016#Andrea_Leadsom
From Wikipedia - Leadsom's endorsements in the previous leadership ballot - quite a 'basket of deplorables':
Andrea Leadsom
'Andrea Leadsom's endorsements, prior to her withdrawal after the second ballot:'

MPs

Nigel Adams, MP for Selby and Ainsty 
Steve Baker, MP for Wycombe 
John Baron, MP for Basildon and Billericay 
Julian Brazier, Minister for Reserves; MP for Canterbury 
Andrew Bridgen, MP for North West Leicestershire 
David Burrowes, MP for Enfield Southgate 
Bill Cash, MP for Stone 
Maria Caulfield, MP for Lewes 
Philip Davies, MP for Shipley 
Nadine Dorries, MP for Mid Bedfordshire 
Steve Double, MP for St Austell and Newquay (previously endorsed Stephen Crabb) 
Richard Drax, MP for South Dorset 
James Duddridge, MP for Rochford and Southend East 
Iain Duncan Smith, MP for Chingford and Woodford Green and former Leader of the Conservative Party 
James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire  (previously endorsed Liam Fox) 
Chris Green, MP for Bolton West 
Chris Heaton-Harris, MP for Daventry 
Gordon Henderson, MP for Sittingbourne and Sheppey 
Philip Hollobone, MP for Kettering 
Stewart Jackson, MP for Peterborough 
Bernard Jenkin, Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee; MP for Harwich and North Essex 
Boris Johnson, former Mayor of London, MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip 
Edward Leigh, former Chair of the Public Accounts Committee; MP for Gainsborough (previously endorsed Liam Fox) 
Charlotte Leslie, MP for Bristol North West 
Julian Lewis, Chair of the Defence Committee; MP for New Forest East 
Peter Lilley, MP for Hitchin and Harpenden 
Tim Loughton, MP for East Worthing and Shoreham 
Karen Lumley, MP for Redditch 
Karl McCartney, MP for Lincoln 
Stephen McPartland, MP for Stevenage 
Penny Mordaunt, Minister of State for the Armed Forces; MP for Portsmouth North 
Anne Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbot 
James Morris, MP for Halesowen and Rowley Regis 
David Mowat, MP for Warrington South 
Sheryll Murray, MP for South East Cornwall 
Andrew Murrison, MP for South West Wiltshire 
David Nuttall, MP for Bury North (previously endorsed Liam Fox) 
Neil Parish, Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee; MP for Tiverton and Honiton 
Owen Paterson, MP for North Shropshire 
Dan Poulter, MP for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich 
Tom Pursglove, MP for Corby 
Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP for North East Somerset (previously endorsed Michael Gove) 
John Redwood, MP for Wokingham 
Laurence Robertson, MP for Tewkesbury 
Andrew Rosindell, MP for Romford 
Henry Smith, MP for Crawley 
Bob Stewart, MP for Beckenham 
Desmond Swayne, Minister for International Development; MP for New Forest West 
Michael Tomlinson, MP for Mid Dorset and North Poole 
Craig Tracey, MP for North Warwickshire 
Martin Vickers, MP for Cleethorpes 
Theresa Villiers, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland; MP for Chipping Barnet 
Heather Wheeler, MP for South Derbyshire 
William Wragg, MP for Hazel Grove 

Other Conservative politicians:

Tim Bell, public relations advisor to Margaret Thatcher 
Michael Howard, former Leader of the Opposition and former Home Secretary 
Norman Tebbit, former Chairman of the Conservative Party 

Members of other parties:

Suzanne Evans, former Deputy Chairman of the UK Independence Party 
Nigel Farage, UKIP MEP for South-East England and former leader of UKIP 
Nick Griffin, former leader of the British National Party, former MEP for North West England 
Margot Parker, UKIP MEP for East Midlands 
Anne Marie Waters, former UKIP member and Parliamentary candidate for Lewisham East in 2015, director of Sharia Watch UK and incumbent leader of For Britain 

Other individuals:

James Delingpole, columnist and novelist (previously endorsed Michael Gove) 
Katie Hopkins, television personality and columnist 
Gerard Lyons, economist 
Louise Mensch, former MP for Corby; columnist and author (previously endorsed Michael Gove) 
Allison Pearson, journalist for The Daily Telegraph 

Organisations:

Leave.EU
BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2018 07:40

Brexiters - especially Fox & DD - better get used to the UK not being as important as it was

India in no rush to do a trade deal with post-Brexit Britain

Two weeks before a high-profile gathering of Commonwealth leaders in London, where the U.K. and Indian prime ministers are due to meet…

India’s high commissioner to the UK says agreeing a free-trade deal with the EU is ‘very important,’ while a deal with the UK will take some time

https://www.politico.eu/article/india-no-rush-to-do-bilateral-trade-deal-with-post-brexit-britain-commonwealth-eu-customs-union-external-tariffs/

… at the Indian High Commission in London, Yashvardhan Sinha also voiced concern that U.K. perceptions of his country were based on pre-independence nostalgia.

"I don’t think India is in a rush"

High on the Indian wish list for a trade agreement is freer movement of people, Sinha reiterated.

“I think for us it is very important that if we need to step up our engagement we need to have that easier access, the ease of travel has to be looked into,”

By contrast, a “great deal” with the EU is “very important,” given the bloc as a whole is “one of our largest trading partners,”
Sinha said, pointing out that
access to the EU market is “very important” for Indian business giants in the U.K. such as the Tata Group.

Peregrina · 06/04/2018 08:06

As far as I am concerned, when leading Brexiters witter on about re-forging links to the Commonwealth, it's only the white Commonwealth they are interested in - Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. They really don't want trade deals with people with black and brown faces unless they can exploit them. But oh no, we are constantly assured by Leavers that they are not racist - but a substantial minority are, and the moderate Leavers would do better to admit that.

mrsreynolds · 06/04/2018 08:28

How on God's name are the Tories winning seats!?
I forsee a difficult time in May for labour ....

howabout · 06/04/2018 09:17

Coming back to the earlier discussion on wealth inequality and taxation yesterday, this is interesting. Basic premise is stop giving tax breaks to wealthy savers (pensions and ISAs) and that no amount of income tax redistribution will help the problem.

Interesting pub quiz fact is that the Nordic countries come TOP for wealth inequality - actually makes sense when you consider that the more you tax earned income and the more egalitarian the wage structure the harder it is to accumulate wealth if you don't start with
any.

I can see no justification for the Osborne changes to inheritance tax but I think they and the LibDem lies on tuition fees cost GB the 2010 election.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/you-can-no-longer-reduce-wealth-inequality-by-taxing-income/

MinnieMousse · 06/04/2018 09:51

I thought readers of this thread might be interested in this essay from yesterday's Guardian www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta?CMP=share_btn_link
It's a bit of a long read, but he argues that the current resurgence of nationalism is actually part of the demise of the nation state.

DGRossetti · 06/04/2018 10:59

the current resurgence of nationalism is actually part of the demise of the nation state.

What's the alternative ? City states ?

howabout · 06/04/2018 11:03

Gated communities DGR. Sad

DGRossetti · 06/04/2018 11:13

Ah, Mark Thomas "Traspass" of a few years ago looking more prescient.

Certainly in Brum, as with London, there are quite a few spaces which are not public (although you'd think they were).

Funnily enough, gated communities are actually a colonial import. So we'll stop allowing people into the UK, just adopt their way of life ?

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 11:16

Yes gated communities. To keep the 'poor violent' people out. Without asking why violence in a community might be related to poverty.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 06/04/2018 11:23

Yes gated communities. To keep the 'poor violent' people out.

But presumably the poor working people (champagne doesn't pour itself) in ????

Wasit Lenin, or Stalin that said "one step back, to take two steps forwards" in justifying the regression of the Russian revolution.

I wonder how many Brexiteers could even spell "feudal" (let alone grasp the concept) in the phrase "feudal system" that they have been tricked into working towards.

State of English today, maybe they thought it was "federal" ?

In a confluence of themes (global overpopulation) it may be time to reflect on how England last threw off the feudal system Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2018 12:07

Iirc, the Uk and US come top for wealth inequality and health inequality
Taxing wealth, especially inherited wealth, is definitely the way to help reduce inequality,
but the UK and US protect wealth and income from investments, property etc

For decades, both countries have concentrated on the politically much easier option of taking income tax on the employed and left the btl / rentier sector alone - the sector that produces no added value for the country, but mostly extracts it from the poor sods paying rent.

I was surprised that the US is nearly as bad as the UK for lack of social mobility and both are worse than most of Europe

but I realised that is a consequence of cutting taxes for the better off and cutting services for the poor

People find it more difficult to rise from poverty if they can't get a good education;
it's difficult to concentrate at school or do homework if kids are hungry,
or have to cope with poor internet, or if their home is very cramped, noisy, damp

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2018 12:10

Wealth concentrated in a few hands

Why we need wealth taxes …

Oxfam reported in 2014 that
the wealthiest family in the UK, the Grosvenors, had more wealth (£7.9bn) than the poorest 10% of the entire UK population (£7.8bn)

The wealthiest 5 UK families have more wealth than the bottom 20% of the population

The wealth of 85 global billionaires is equivalent to that of half the world's population – or 3.5 billion people.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/17/oxfam-report-scale-britain-growing-financial-inequality

DGRossetti · 06/04/2018 12:22

It's worth reminding ourselves (it's that pesky learning. Again) that "wealth" is a human construct which only has value in context.

If I'm starving, but can catch my dinner, then no amount of your gold will save you.

DGRossetti · 06/04/2018 12:23

Iirc, the Uk and US come top for wealth inequality and health inequality

It's taken over two centuries, but it seems the idea of English elitism has finally reconquered the land that thought it had defeated it .... is not something you'll hear many Americans agreeing with.

howabout · 06/04/2018 15:15

Surprisingly difficult to get source stats on wealth as opposed to income inequality. However this article is quite interesting in tying together with The Spectator one. It reckons people in Denmark etc don't bother accumulating wealth because they have decent levels of social provision. (The Spectator was arguing against favouring saving over consumption). Comes back to your definition of wealth DGR.

uk.businessinsider.com/why-socialist-scandinavia-has-some-of-the-highest-inequality-in-europe-2014-10?r=US&IR=T

(US is number 2 on the list but UK is middling looking at top 10%)

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2018 17:35

Sounds like rich people trying to argue against taxing them
A move to a wealth tax would be much fairer than increasing income tax, as it would help those from poor backgrounds accumulate wealth

The point also is that Scandinavia has not destroyed its welfare state with tax cuts.

Also afaik, like Germany, they provide the 2 fundamental needs that hammer typical families in the UK: reasonable and secure rentals, cheap but good childcare.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2018 17:39

Yet another crisis date ?

According to RNorth today*
*
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86822

there is to be a "stocktake" on 18 April,
when either the UK produces a new non-magical plan

“OR
the EU will insist on the backstop option of full regulatory alignment north and south of the border
< not surprising after all the rumours of Oz & US trade deals, which would inevitably mean the UK freely importing meat / poultry with banned substances >

This, of course, is something Mrs May has said would not be acceptable to a British prime minister.“
< so another U-turn ? >

lalalonglegs · 06/04/2018 17:56

Maybe David Trimble has read the blog, BigChoc and is preparing the ground for a flounce. He has been saying that the Irish government is provoking Loyalist paramilitaries with their stance on the Irish border Hmm.

Peregrina · 06/04/2018 18:27

I don't follow Trimble's logic. He talked about Constitutional change requiring a Referendum, but there won't be a change in NI if they stay in the CU & SM, and beside which, the majority in NI voted to stay in the EU.