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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 02:51

Tony Blair's speech in Parliament - as part of the Speaker's lecture series on Brexit

Excellent analyis.
Why the hell couldn't he think so clearly when he was PM ?
Time pressure ?

https://institute.global/news/tony-blair-parliaments-duty-brexit#t4

“The Europeans, having at first thought that there was some truly cunning plan from the best brains of the British system,
now frankly think it is the product of the brain of Baldrick”

< yes, we have government by Baldrick >

"When I was growing up in politics the Tories were always the pragmatic folk.
< yup >

They eschewed ideology.
They were business minded and prided themselves on common sense.
They stood out against being railroaded by shouty activists.

These are the qualities which have deserted them in pursuit of Brexit."

"There is time, but not much time, to restore a proper patriotism,
one which concentrates on building the nation’s strength to handle the challenge of a changing world,
not taking refuge in the vain hope of escaping it.

BestIsWest · 27/03/2018 06:07
Star
HesterThrale · 27/03/2018 07:22

Change of leadership in Labour is going to be necessary if only to restore a greater concensus in the party. I don't think they'll be able to oust JC: the attempted failed coup in 2016 was so damaging. He'll have to resign. Slowly, very slowly his position may become so untenable (Russia, anti-semitism, women) that even he realises he has to go.
I keep looking for potential future senior leaders of the party. It's not clear to the eye. I think to some extent some are keeping their powder dry. I don't know much about Ben Bradshaw, but he seems very good on this clip, previously posted here:

m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=01pnvqL51iE

lonelyplanetmum · 27/03/2018 07:51

.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
RedToothBrush · 27/03/2018 08:12

Tom Newton Dunn @ tnewtondunn
Excl: Britain threatens to cripple Galileo satellite’s global coverage if EU Commission presses ahead with locking UK out of it;
www.thesun.co.uk/news/5906949/britain-galileo-satellite-european-union-threat/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Ministers will hit back with a pledge to turn off key infrastructure for it on the Falklands, Ascension Island and Diego Garcia.

The Galileo satellite – relied on by businesses as well as the military – uses dishes and boosters on Britain’s overseas territories to give it global vision.

The £8.5bn programme provides a European encrypted navigation system to rival the USA’s GPS.

The tit for tat block will be relayed to EU negotiators in a formal letter soon.

Now there is an interesting argument as to why the EU should support the UK over the Falklands too...

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SusanWalker · 27/03/2018 08:21

Place marking.

lalalonglegs · 27/03/2018 08:24

Hmm, every time the UK has threatened rather than negotiated, it hasn't gone well.

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2018 08:25

Worth reflecting on. I do think this is correct, if only because of democratic considerations and how destructive it would be to do otherwise.

Style Light @ sime0nstylites
Modern Times

One side says, ‘These stories show the referendum is illegitimate.’

Spoiler: They do not.

The other side says, ‘These stories are nothing but a Remain conspiracy.’

Spoiler: They are not

Patsturgis @patricksturg
Let us assume the stories about collusion are found by Electoral Commission to be correct & there are criminal convictions. In that case would you still maintain that the referendum result is legitimate?

Style Light @ sime0nstylites
It would of course depend on the precise circumstances but in most situations I can realistically imagine, yes.
FAOD all the allegations should be thoroughly and objectively investigated.
IMV a more interesting question than the ‘legitimacy’ of the referendum is to what extent any investigation might undermine the credibility of the referendum and thereby shift public opinion wrt a second referendum.

Simon Thorpe @ srthorpe
I think that’s right. Is there any revelation that could make it illegitimate? Probably but hard to see where the tipping point is.
I do think that the lack of compromise options and paucity of reasons for proceeding beyond the “will of the people” means anything that casts doubt on the pureness of the democratic expression is significant.

Style Light @ sime0nstylites
That’s fair. The impact is perhaps more on the credibility of the people involves vs the event itself.

Simon Thorpe @ srthorpe
If public opinion were to shift, I could imagine this as part of a broader justification for another say on the topic. But I think the people would need to realise they’ve been sold a pup first.

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 27/03/2018 08:28
Smile
Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
lonelyplanetmum · 27/03/2018 08:30

Ministers will hit back with a pledge to turn off key infrastructure for it on the Falklands, Ascension Island and Diego Garcia.

It’s just so hugely shabby. Like the speeches around the time she triggered Article 50. She threatened other European leaders implying that failure to reach the comprehensive agreement she wanted would result in a weakening of cooperation on crime and security. She implied as much in the article 50 letter itself as well.

I thought that crass, transparent blackmail tactic perhaps was advised by Nick Timothy. Clearly not.

So the EU provide prompt security cooperation and expel Russian diplomats and support us over murders on our turf. We respond by threatening lack of Galileo co- operation. Nice.

Peregrina · 27/03/2018 08:39

Reading about the Galileo programme caused me to muse:
Assuming some sort of Brexit happens, but that some sort of fudge is allowed to let the UK cherry pick the bits it does want, I wonder whether it will cost as much or more than we pay now for satellite input, aviation, Euratom, EMA, banking etc.

But don't worry folks, it will have been made more difficult for those pesky furriners to come here, we will have blue passports and the real bonus, Farage will be out of a job. Grin

prettybird · 27/03/2018 08:43

Definitely not holding my breath about any result from proven illegality in either the elections or the Referendum (which was advisory anyway Hmm ).

Both the Electoral Commission and the law is toothless in such matters. An electoral court has to decide that, even in the case of proven lies, it is beyond reasonable doubt that those lies influenced sufficient voters to change the result. That is impossible to do. Sad

The LibDem Liar Carmichael was taken to a rare electoral court by the Orkney Four after he won by 800 votes following him lying about his knowledge of a memo which misrepresented a meeting that Nicola Sturgeon had had with the French ambassador. The conclusion was that even though it was accepted that he had lied, it wasn't sufficient to recall him, as it couldn't be proven that his lies comments were sufficient to have influenced the electorate Hmm especially as people have come to accept lies from politicians which was the LibDems defence Angry

Only saving grace Wink was that he had to pay his own costs - so was going to have to find at least £150k (if not more Shock) after his crowd-funding attempt only raised £14k, whereas the Orkney Four had raised over £200k through their crowd-funding (and could have raised more if required as it was they were able to make a large donation to charity )

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/08/alistair-carmichael-scotland-150000-legal-bill-election-court-leaked-memo

Peregrina · 27/03/2018 08:43

Ministers will hit back with a pledge to turn off key infrastructure for it on the Falklands, Ascension Island and Diego Garcia.

And France, Portugal, Spain and the Netherlands don't still have overseas territories which could provide the necessary listening posts? I suspect May might find that this threat is more hollow than she thinks.

I agree that this might leave a bit of a gap in the South Atlantic area, but let's remind ourselves which country had a vast empire in South America, and still has strong links with the continent.

Talkstotrees · 27/03/2018 08:50

Following - thank you RTB.

It’s all so horribly cringemakingly embarrassing Sad

Peregrina · 27/03/2018 08:54

However, like the 'row of the summer' which lasted all of a morning, is the threat to not allow access to the Falklands etc. more huffing and puffing to appease the right wing of the Tories, and there will be a quiet climb down in due course? With especial regard to the Falklands, which country is Argentina more friendly with now?

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 27/03/2018 09:04

Wasn't the big thing that whenever the Argentine government wanted to hide or quell something domestic they stoked up a war of words over the Falklands/las malvinas?

I wonder if this is TMs version.

TheElementsSong · 27/03/2018 09:09

I suspect May might find that this threat is more hollow than she thinks.

Assuming there's any truth to the article (it is in the Sun, remember their "things that will be cheaper after Brexit" fiction?) - it's just a load of hugely embarrassing bluster because Leavers haven't yet noticed that on this, like much else, the emperor is naked and the empire is dust. It's "Don't They Know Who We Are?" carved on the plinth of Ozymandias.

woman11017 · 27/03/2018 09:25

carved on the plinth of Ozymandias
Look on my works ye Blighty and despair.

TheElementsSong · 27/03/2018 09:28

Look on my works ye Blighty and despair.

GrinGrinGrin

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2018 09:43

Alex Wickham @WikiGuido
Legal letters also going in to Bindmans, the 'campaigning' laywers who held that press conference yesterday, and three other QCs, threatening them with defamation and libel action:
order-order.com/2018/03/27/cummings-filing-formal-complaint-bar-standards-board-jolyon/
Cummings Filing Formal Complaint to Bar Standards Board About Jolyon

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RedToothBrush · 27/03/2018 09:47

Tony Blair tells Tories to block Brexit if they want to avoid Corbyn government

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 27/03/2018 09:54

Two things happening today:

Carole Cadwalladr
‏*@carolecadwalla*
Emergency debate in parliament today re Vote Leave.
MPs: this Google drive is key evidence.
Set up by VL to co-ordinate BeLeave's content. On right: the deletion log.
March 1, Electoral Commission opened investigation.
March 17, Vote Leave deleted itself from 140 files

[and rest of highly interesting thread here: twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/978539098523742209 ]

From a different website: The debate will start in the Commons at 12.30pm and will last for two hours.

And

Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee
‏***@CommonsCMS
Cambridge Analytica whistle-blower @chrisinsilico and co-founder of @personaldataio Paul- Olivier @podehaye are giving evidence to the @CommonsCMS* next week.
Watch this session on Tuesday 27th March 10.30am on parliamentlive.tv
Photo credit: Antonio Olmos

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 27/03/2018 10:49

This just popped up in my twitter feed:
t.co/VCoNCCfQJE
Zuck avoiding MPs, sending a senior manager instead. Hardly surprising.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 27/03/2018 10:49

Thats a link to BBC btw, not sure how I managed to copy the twitter short url.

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2018 10:57

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Favourite story of the day: poor old New Zealand can't find any Kremlin spies to throw out. PM Jacinda Ardern: "We have done a check. We don't have Russian undeclared intelligence officers here. If we did, we would expel them".

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