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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

OP posts:
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Mistigri · 31/03/2018 14:57

the desire to close ANY debate is not coming from the feminist side.

That might well be true off mumsnet, but the threads I've seen here are very binary and any attempt to have a nuanced debate - any attempt, for example, to discuss the fact that biological sex is not as simple as XX vs XY - is simply shouted down.

Like I said, I don't know what the debate looks like away from mumsnet, but here on mumsnet, some of the anti-trans threads bear a striking ressemblance to the supposedly-feminist anti-Muslim threads on the EU ref forum two years ago. Anyone remember the Cologne threads? That's what I am reminded of. And it would not shock me at all to learn that there is a political agenda here (and I am not talking about a feminist political agenda).

MOnsterMOuse · 31/03/2018 15:17

Anyone remember the Cologne threads? I was on them. I am from a middle eastern background and have family in Germany where I have lived for many years. The threads were not all bad at all, there was a genuine situation and the hundreds or thousands of girls across Germany, note not only German girls but women and girls living in German from all ethnic groups, encountered catcalling and groping on a scale that had not happened before. They were mobbed by north African men who were pissed and mostly petty criminals, according to german police. They were mostly not genuine refuges from Syria though. Saying that several girls have been raped and murdered by asylum seekers in Germany in the last 3 years.

I detest it when so called feminists play down the real and shitty reality faced by girls, often working class girls who are victims of this sort of hassle and crime. My parents and I have volunteered translate services to refuges in the past, which I hope goes to show that I am not your typical racist. The threads were not anti Muslim, again note that I am from a Muslim background myself, though an atheist now but they discussed the fact that many men from the middle East hold deeply misogynist beliefs. There is a topic for discussion there. Also see what happened in Rotherham and other places in the UK. White European man are not any better but their abusive behaviour presents differently. Admittedly there were a few posters who probably had a Brexit agenda but saying the Cologne threads were racists is untrue and an oversimplification.

Thought I put that out there.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2018 15:25

For me the biggest issues don't lie first and foremost with The Great Toilet Debate

For me, the reverse is true. It seems the entire trans bandwagon (which has already eclipsed disability debates anyway) is simply going to lead to "trans spaces" being prioritised over provision for the disabled. In fact it already happened on another thread, where the suggestion was made that the disabled facility should be turned into a trans/safe space.

Ultimately, whatever is decided in Heaven, will have to be done on Earth. And in an Earth with limited space anyway, the increasing number of special provisions that need to be made will simply push out those that can't push themselves.

Nearly 22 years ago - after a £10million refit managed to leave our local hospital with no accessible showering facilities, I had to wash my wife down after giving birth, at 2:30 am. Not a time to discover you faint at the sight of blood (which, luckily I don't) We had to go home at 9am (leaving DS in neonatal) on the advice of the care team as they weren't able to provide the facilities. (Mind you, when DW discovered she was pregnant, the first question she was asked by the doctor was when she wanted the abortion scheduled. Even then, disabled people weren't encouraged to breed).

I wonder if this is part of the Leave plan ? Fuck all news on Brexit, so the debateosphere - hating a vacuum - pulls in other topics ?

The only silver lining is that we did the shopping yesterday, and I managed to buy a meringue so big it needed two hands to hold it, and I still have more than half left.

mrsquagmire · 31/03/2018 15:36

I agree, Mouse - I also followed the Cologne threads. A Bonn paper reported that Moroccan families who’d been living and working in Germany for years were just as horrified and angry as the native Germans.

Mistigri · 31/03/2018 15:38

I went back and scanned though some of those Cologne threads and I don't think I was mistaken (they are in the "in the news" forum, not here - sorry). There were no doubt a number of posters genuinely concerned about women's safety, but those threads were also populated by some very right-wing pro-Brexit voices, and there was a fair bit of racism too.

Note that I have no problem with discussing the risks to vulnerable members of society that is posed by some groups of males who think they have a (literally) god-given right to behave how they want. But I wouldn't do it on here, and I certainly wouldn't have done it on here two years ago, because threads like that were honey to the Brexit trolls.

Mistigri · 31/03/2018 15:48

Plus - it is extremely curious that no one wants to talk about violence against women in Germany any more (after 6000 + posts on the subject over the referendum period, when the likes of Farage were doing their very best to get people worked up about migrants because it suited their Brexit agenda). It seems to me that some of the same people are now obsessed about trans rights and what the Labour Party isn't doing about it, and I find that very curious.

The Labour Party is indeed up shit creek without a paddle, and is currently led by idiots and dangerous ideologues, but I can't see that it's any worse that the Tories in that respect. The Cons are also led by an incompetent in hock to dangerous ideologues, some of whom believe that the earth is less than 6000 years old and that it is better for women to die than a foetus to be aborted.

Hence my curiosity about why the kerfuffle over trans rights, and why now. It seems very orchestrated.

Violetparis · 31/03/2018 15:51

The problem is if decent people are afraid to discuss the attacks in Cologne, the grooming of working class girls and self id because they are more worried about being thought of as racist or transphobic then the far right will take advantage.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 17:33

Hence my curiosity about why the kerfuffle over trans rights, and why now. It seems very orchestrated.

Why now? Its to do with a review into the GRA taking place and changes to Scottish Law. Last week in preparation for bring in Self ID they changed the definition of what a woman is in Scottish law. Before the consultation they were doing has been completed. And notably they did not change in law what the definition of a man was.

OP posts:
Mistigri · 31/03/2018 18:12

I agree this is very concerning (not to mention linguistically and biologically improbable) but

  • posts on social media that come over as bigoted and intolerant don't create an environment in which sane left and right wing moderates can work together to oppose this nonsense
  • why is the Labour Party the primary target of criticism?
Mistigri · 31/03/2018 18:16

The problem is if decent people are afraid to discuss the attacks in Cologne, the grooming of working class girls and self id because they are more worried about being thought of as racist or transphobic then the far right will take advantage.

Yet apparently "decent people" were only concerned about this during a period when demonisation of North African migrants was being orchestrated by people with a pro Brexit agenda.

Over 6000 posts during the referendum period and then ... nothing.

Funny that.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 18:46

The trans issue has rocketed in importance because one tiny group have demanded "rights" which significantly reduce the hard-won rights of another, much larger, group that has always been disadvantaged:
women

As a British-Arab women, I would be outraged if white people suddenly "identified" as Arab,
defined me as '`cis-Arab",
demanded entry as a right into all Arab organisations and cultural group meetings
aggressively pushed their way into official positions within those groups
violently attacked genuine Arab women who held meetings without them,
made gruesome online threats of torture, rape, murder against Arab women who wouldn't accept them as Arab
and when I objected, called me a hater and claimed I was persecuting them

Trans has reduced rights, safety and opportunities for women.
I have observed no practical change in Germany, as Misti may not have in France, but the changes in the UK and US have already been harmful to women

Many years ago, there was a tiny minority, about 0.1%, of men who had body dysmorphia and felt more comfortale
These unhappy folk just got on quietly with their lives, had no effect on women, so feminists were 100% supportive of this first trans wave

However, over the last few years, there has been aggressive encroachment of this subset of men into women's spaces.
It has rl effects on ordinary women, particularly on vulnerable women, but maybe not so much the wealthy, healthy middle class ones

It really is all about biology
Sex is defined by hormones, whereas gender is a social construct
It is biology that causes the clashes, because biology puts women at a physical disadvantage, leading to millennia of disadvantage

  • in prisons, hospital wards, refuges, rape crisis centres, changing rooms for sports
  • in sports contests, where mediocre men can identify as women and suddenly become world-beaters, defeating the very best of women who have trained all their lives - all pointlessly, when competing against a man.
  • Suddenly transwomen are claiming to be the "first UK servicewoman in combat" or claiming that the number of "women CEOs" in Silicon Valley has rocketed. Gives a completely false impression of how far women have achieved equality, when men using male privilege achieve something while claiming to be women.

It is very significant that TRA activists claim they are in danger in men's prisons, toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards etc
but always savagely criticise RadFems, never the men whom they claim might rape them.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 18:47

Aargh: sex is defined by hormones chromosomes

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 18:49

Biological sex is not the issue, Mistigri. Nobody is disputing that there are people with more complex chromosomal situations than XX and XY.

The issue is surface appearance. The issue is mistaking style for substance. The issue is the assertion in the face of all scientific evidence to the contrary that there is a female brain and a male brain. We are being asked to believe that someone can 'feel like' a member of the opposite sex, and accept that they have a 'female' brain because they like to wear clothing of a certain style, or makeup, etc. I personally don't know what it feels like to be my own sister.

Yes indeed, certain issues have been taken advantage of. In the recent GOP gubernatorial primary in the state where I live the neo-liberal, Scott Walker fan, incumbent faced off against a racist, anti-immigration, right winger. It's very disappointing that the left has allowed the right to corner some issues that are actually really important for women. By the same token, the right also opens its arms wide to candidates who assert that women can't get pregnant as a result of rape - another topic that got a lot of internet discussion when it happened, which was during an election. The problems remain whether they are being actively discussed or not.

It's not the nature of the issues that is the problem. Neither right nor left has the welfare of women and children front and centre (and it is up to women to make sure that changes). The problem with the left is the fact that it has dropped the ball when it comes to women and children - if it is perceived that there are more 'deserving' causes, women and children will be asked to take a number and get to the back of the line.

There are a lot of issues roiling away, as DGRosetti points out, a huge Venn diagram.

I would personally like to see more science, to factual evidence, and far less to feelings, just as I would like to see more attention to economic fact, and to facts in general when it comes to Brexit and to the role of Russia.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 18:52

I wouldn't vote for any party that declared I was a cis-Arab and which reduced my rights accordingly,

nor will I vote for any party that supports self-ID and the TRA agenda - which tbh would have more practical effects for me than being downgraded to a cis-Arab

That's both principle and self-preservation
If that means I end up voting for Theresa May, or even JRM and a no-deal Brexit, then so be it

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 18:52

"...faced off against a racist, anti-immigration, right winger who supported a group of high school parents in their opposition to opening up girls' teams, girls' showers, girls' locker rooms to a particular boy whose parents had taken the school district to court.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2018 18:59

Moving back to all that analytics data, I wonder if there's been any research done on how the principles of chaos theory might impinge on it ?

Unless my understanding is wildly off beam, the basic tenet of chaos theory is that for some systems no matter how much data you possess the outcome of a given input cannot be determined in advance.

Maybe the biggest laugh will be on the mugs customers of CA, who basically wasted their money ....

mrsreynolds · 31/03/2018 19:00

Agree bigchoc

MOnsterMOuse · 31/03/2018 19:10

Yet apparently "decent people" were only concerned about this during a period when demonisation of North African migrants was being orchestrated by people with a pro Brexit agenda.

This is SO annoying. Do you have any knowledge of Germany or you just basing your views on lovely ideology? 2 years ago there were refuges absolutely everywhere. In schools, sports halls, community halls, and many more coming in populating spaces inside and out. There was an actual crisis. Where my relatives live, they transformed the local school sports centre into temp accommodation and children were unable to use these facilities for nearly a year. The asylum seekers were hanging out at the local Lidl, drinking in the bushes, sitting on playground benches drinking beer whilst children were playing there as well as begging on public transport. Another large refuge centre was established nearby and there were SO many people from the ME. Many locals, German and old immigrants stopped sending their children out by themselves, as they didn't feel it was safe or comfortable. This year there are not so many asylum seekers around anymore, the sports hall has been returned to the school and the remaining asylum seekers blend in with the rest of the local population, whilst there are still social the crisis as such is over. That's why it's not necessarily a topic that's on people's minds. The AFD however had field day and exploited the NYE mass groping effectively in their 2017 election campaign. If ordinary people shove this under the rug, the right will hijack it, and indeed has done so.

And why should we not be able to discuss the phenomenon of large groups of single men who are away from their families and how their behaviour impacts on women and children in temporary accommodation for asylum seekers as well as in public spaces, discos, shopping centres. There was and is rape, abuse and murder. It's hardly surprising, if you consider the behaviour of men in general when they are away from their families and traditional values, law and order. We see this all over the world, most recently with the Oxfam scandal. Time and again, it's women and girls paying the price for people's ideologies, left or right. It's the same with the trans debate but luckily MN is more 'woke' wrt this topic.

mybrainhurtsalot · 31/03/2018 19:12

I’m not sure the conservatives are much better on this score, BigChoc - Maria Miller was pushing gender neutral passports and for refugees to be open to men who have transitioned. Here’s an article saying Theresa May has plans to improve trans rights and allow people to self-certify:
www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/18/theresa-may-plans-to-let-people-change-gender-without-medical-checks

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 19:13

It is also disgraceful that the left tried to sweep Rotherham under the carpet
and Cologne - I was on the Cologne threads, btw
This neglect has reaped a bitter harvest politically,

Rotherham and now Telford are often mentioned on threads about immigration or Brexit
Posters complain, with some justification, that the middle class "establishment" ignore and keep ignoring the wicked crimes against thousands of vulnerable working class girls

A few MN posters actively try to bring this into every possible thread, whenever we - from the centre or left - criticise Tory policy, this neglect of wc girls is thrown back in our faces

It is a huge issue and imo one of the main reasons that such anger and distrust arose on the Leave side
It was the far right who brought the grooming gangs into the public spotlight
because the left and centre were frantically trying to keep it all quiet

The more mainstream hard right took up the cause, which won them support from many who felt ignored.

I think we under-estimate, or prefer not to think about, how much effect those vile grooming gangs - and the establishment ignoring of them - had on ramping up support for Leave, especially in the North
and on raising support for far right and hard right policies.

I agree with angry Leavers on at least this point:
if it had been young middle class girls raped by gangs, then there would have been prompt & very tough action by the state, so that the number of victims would have been far far fewer.

MOnsterMOuse · 31/03/2018 19:18

Thanks bigchoc

mrsquagmire · 31/03/2018 19:21

You beat me to it, Mouse, I was just writing something similar - I was in Bonn at the time. Lots of serious problems in swimming pools too. And the problem of large groups of excited young single males in unfamiliar surroundings. Which is a problem we export as well.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 19:26

Yes, the AfD have switched from opposing the Euro currency, which was why they were originally founded,
into an anti-Muslim hard right party, which even flirts with neo-Nazis

They used to be a harmlessly eccentric rather old-fashioned conservative party and in fact their founders have expressed dismay at this change in direction.

However, it has made the AfD into a major political force, because the mainstream parties tried to sweep the attacks under the rug.

When many voters are frightened, the worst thing responsible parties can do is to ignore or whitewash
Face the truth, deal with it, explain to the public how you are dealing with it to make them safer
then you have a chance to take the voters with you

Merkel and the SPD realised this too late, but are now acting very responsibly
However, trust once lost is very difficult to regain

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 19:34

mybrain I have posted about Maria Miller on a couple of threads where posters made it into a Labour issue.
Unfortunately the LibDems mostly support self-ID, as do the Greens, who now class women & transwomen together as "non-men"
Outrageously, even the Women's Equality Party support the TRA agenda

However, Miller was in a minority in the Tory party and has been booted out.
May does appear to be feminist (when it doesn't get in the way of her more important plans)
and none of her senior cabinet ministers, or JRM & co have supported self-ID afaik.

So on the TRA issue, the Tories are considerably better than the other parties

  • they fill a gap in the market that is being ignored by other parties.
borntobequiet · 31/03/2018 19:35

DGR - I mentioned chaos theory upthread.
Effectively, the reset button was pressed. So who knows what might happen? The people driving it really don't care, because they can exploit it whatever ensues.

Swipe left for the next trending thread