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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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Mistigri · 31/03/2018 10:27

^Labour has been lost to fools and crackpots
My party is led by a man who prefers to entrench division on every occasion instead of searching for common ground^

The problem with that article - most of which I agree with - is that it comes across as fervently partisan as the corbynites.

I was reading yesterday that there have been attempts to deselect David Lammy - does anyone know if that is true? How can anyone object to Lammy? He is hands down my favourite MP (albeit in a rather weak field). Represents his constituents, knows his personal limitations, stands up for his values. Labour really is lost if someone like Lammy is no longer welcome.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 10:30

Pretty that exact argument is one that I saw in an article the other day.

quillette.com/2018/03/21/the-problem-of-credulity/

Its this one if you haven't seen.

I am impressed by quite a few articles the site has had in the last week or so. They are good for critical thought. Don't agree with all, but I wish political debate was a step closer to this than the current mess its in.

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 31/03/2018 10:35

I saw this earlier this week and it seems to resonant with what’s being said on here, discussing the adoption of language of the underdogs

standpointmag.co.uk/node/7105/full

Violetparis · 31/03/2018 10:36

I had seen The Guardian article you posted Frumpety. It needs do do more though, where are the howls of outrage from the columnists who are so quick to pick up on issues which suit their agenda. The Guardian also annoyed me in its article on the calls for David Lammy to be deselected. It was apparently people posting on Facebook calling for his delection. No detail on how many were calling for his deselection, where was the proof they were even Labour supporters and not just idiots on social media. I just have no idea what media source to trust these days.

lalalonglegs · 31/03/2018 10:42

Misti - as far as I can tell, the attempts to deselect Lammy came down to a bunch of Momentum supporters griping on social media. It could the start of a more prolonged campaign but, at this stage, didn't seem very formal. Just very depressing (the people discussing him objected to him going to the anti-semitism protest on Monday and standing alongside Jewish leaders).

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 31/03/2018 10:52

Peter Jukes
@peterjukes
Now this is really weird. Just at the exact moment Beleave gets its dodgy £675k from @voteleave - Gove's friend Rupert Murdoch registers @TheSun as a campaigning org, uses BELEAVE at its front page, and pays nearly £100k in campaign funds. To whom? (ht @mrceebs)

The closer you look at this, @ElectoralCommUK, the more suspicious it gets

13 June 2016 - Beleave Campaign given 625k
14 June - Sun leads with unusual BeLeave headline
16 June - Sun registered as an official Brexit campaigner with 100k in ads.

@AdamRamsay @PeterKGeoghegan

Blimey - no wonder Murdoch papers so quiet about #CambridgeAnalyticaUncovered scandal - they shared offices in New York #CambridgeAnalytica

mobile.twitter.com/SunApology/status/975857678957338624

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
SwedishEdith · 31/03/2018 10:56

Not sure if this FT article has been posted yet. Nothing that's not already been said on these threads but still good - as much for the comments as well.

Brexit and Britain’s two-faced ruling class
‘Even many Brexiters believe their own ideology in theory but not in detail. Brexit hasn’t unfolded as they expected’

www.ft.com/content/2ceb393e-3213-11e8-ac48-10c6fdc22f03?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 11:03

I find the current formulation of identity politics fascinating.

The Crenshaw essay emerged from a lot of thinking about how to introduce flexibility and nuance into descriptions of progressive politics. Those descriptions were also, it has to be emphasised, suggestions as to the shape of a future project of progressive politics.

I have to say, I find it ... interesting ... that the Crenshaw essay has emerged as the the key text - and I find the shape of identity politics that seems prevalent at the moment, which claims the Crenshaw essay as foundational (in some sense) quite baffling.

My favourite author in this area is Anne Marie Smith. She put forward an idea/model of political subjects as nodal - with identity ranging over a network of 'nodes' (you can be white, working class, female, straight, etc.). Those 'nodes' are areas of identity that have a political articulation at a given point in time (so it is possible to think of areas of identity that have no political 'meaning' at some points, but gain political meaning at others and may need struggling for to gain political articulation and validity - or equally, some points 'go quiet', and become less politically relevant). Likewise, your identity can change over time (you can change from being straight, or working class, etc.).

Importantly, Smith leaves space for people's political identities not leading directly to a political identification with their position (a more nuanced idea of how 'false consciousness' can happen, or political altruism - eg. you may be in a socio-economically powerful position but work for the end of oppression of those in a socio-economically disadvantaged position) - though her analysis goes beyond this.

Likewise, Smith's model also looks at how, within individuals and within societies, and within political groups and social groups, those 'nodes of identity' can play against each other, producing interference, 'noise', and conflict (how social and political interventions with a liberatory intention in one area/along one axis can end up delivering oppression elsewhere).

The current model of identity politics 'we' appear to have adopted is incredibly inflexible. It seems to be grounded on a real inflexibility - one 'is' a white woman, one 'is' therefore less oppressed than a black woman. The identities are bounded - which is bizarre, given that the Crenshaw article is founded on the acknowledgment that identities may be multiple.

And this reasoning fits incredibly well with what I am thinking of as 'the return of the idea of an identifiable elite'. Now this line of reasoning we may well remember from the Referendum campaign. Anyone remember all those trolls and shills, who would start ranting on about 'the liberal elite' and (of course) the Soros conspiracy and then justify their line with reference to Owen Jones' work on 'The Establishment'?

I know that Owen Jones' book was a rallying call - a determination to turn back the tide of woolliness that had arisen as a kind of slack acceptance in the wake of Foucault's characterisation of power as a network, without a centre (that could be 'decapitated' easily). BUT, I think what we are now seeing emerge is EXACTLY the situation which prompted Foucault to write.

There is something in this idea of a clearly defined, exclusionary network of power - with clearly bounded figures, exerting power - which lends itself horribly well to conspiracy theories.

Obviously, the truth lies somewhere in between - there are powerful, exclusionary networks, which reproduce power, with actual, real figures driving that network.

However, acknowledging that cannot mean allowing yourselves to fall into a dangerous lack of criticality, regarding everything as a seamless conspiracy by a homogenous 'elite'.

And it leaves absolutely no space for the idea of people acting against their interests, or for other interests, or - crucially - with no one, single, organising rational interest at all.

Conspiracy theories breed in this fertile ground. It's a consolatory fiction, in a way - there is a hidden, evil force. If it can only be uncovered by the wise, it can be 'decapitated' and stopped, and 'good' will prevail. Moreover, all the bad things that happen, all the conflicts that arise, all the opposing interests that emerge, can be put down to the evil work of those super-clever, shadowy figures organising together to thwart the ''good'.

The new, bounded, notion of identity politics plays into this perfectly. It relies on a model of a political subject, whose interests and political-socio-economic position are absolutely identical. Their progressive potential is based absolutely on who they are, rather than a more functionalist idea of what they do. It's so easy to sort people into 'good' and 'bad', to 'weigh' and hierarchise oppressions, to organise interests into groups based on this fantasy of bounded, immutable identity.

However, real life experience keeps showing us that political 'good' and 'virtue' are not conferred automatically because of an 'identity'. And, likewise, there is rarely a single, rational entity (good or evil) driving political events. Reality is just messier and more conflicted than that.

The political reality is far, far more nuanced, undecidable and conflicted than that. And, oddly enough, that is actually what the Crenshaw essay is all about, with its examination of pragmatics and function in a real - non-idealised - social-political context.

It's all very bizarre.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 11:05

You know, I write all this anti-conspiracy theory stuff well aware of the irony that we are here, as what seems to have been a 'conspiracy' to undermine democracy emerges ... Grin

Reality is, indeed, messy.

frumpety · 31/03/2018 11:07

The problem with the whole 'howls of outrage' thing , is that I have a sneaking suspicion that that is what got us into the current mess in the first place. I like facts and figures , dull and dry and very much out of vogue at the moment , more's the pity.

frumpety · 31/03/2018 11:15

Am definitely going to google Ann Marie Smith when I return from work cat, fascinating stuff Smile

frumpety · 31/03/2018 11:17

Also admit to having to google Brocialism Blush

Peregrina · 31/03/2018 11:24

I'd never heard of brocialism either, but I could immediately guess what it was. I knew only too well the sort of Labourite man it referred to. I don't think Tory men are any less sexist, but none of them have ever tried to recruit me to their party; the odd brocialist has tried to recruit me to Labour and never seemed to understand why I wasn't prepared to join their fold.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2018 11:27

Given the subject matter this thread has developed into, I'm mildly surprised that no one has remembered the incredible apathy Labour (among others) showed over PIE in the 1970s ...

forget a blind alley - that's a small city with boulevards, bowling greens, fountains museums and coffee bars that you could lose any Brexit opposition down Hmm

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 11:38

Alas, that seems to be back on the agenda, in force, with Pink News and it's current embrace of 'incest' (I prefer the term 'inter-familial abuse').

I have a personal experience of a leftie group attempting to welcome PIE into its fold. Don't think I can tell it here (more's the pity) but it has left me with a deep conviction that there are absolute divisions - which can only ever be temporarily and for specific purposes resolved - between different left wing groups (eg. between left-wing men, between gay men, and women).

That's another aspect of Anne Marie Smith's thinking. She wrote in the shadow of the idea that the Left has to give up on the idea of a unified, coherent, left-wing politics. Instead, we should look to specific, limited objectives, and organise into temporary alliances based on those limited objectives. We had to be aware that 'the Left' was not unified, all the time. Sometimes, progressives have interests that directly compete and conflict.

(PIE is a very good instance of that.)

Telling people to ignore those very real differences and conflicts 'for the common goal/common good' was/is oppressive.

She argues that the task of the Left is to work out ways of mediating those conflicts, and working out a mechanism for negotiating whose interests get fought for, when and where - which are big, big questions.

Oddly enough, the Trans debate is a very good example of just that situation. And, instead of acknowledging that there is a conflict, and working out a way to discuss that conflict, and then to manage that conflict, we see instead the crazy situation where people on the Left are engaging in the old magical/religious thinking of dividing people into 'good' and 'evil'.

(I'm looking at Owen Jones here, amongst others.)

It's such lazy thinking. It's such an enormous step backwards, when so much critical work has been done to try and take us past this point. And yet - here we are.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2018 11:44

In the interests of balance - I think this thread needs to cover all views and have some content of interest to the Brexiteers who must be feeling very confused right now.

So in the spirit of reaching and, and coming together, maybe this will help as a peace offering. The only thing I'd say to Brexiteers is that they should be nice to each other about it, and not start squabbling.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
woman11017 · 31/03/2018 11:50

Imagine if these genuine faultlines have been enflamed deliberately to benefit brexism. It's worked out for Bell Pottinger in the ME and SA.
Kenya is in a state of emergency after CA's interference in their elections.

Dischord can be enriching.

woman11017 · 31/03/2018 11:56

Only know about current state of emergency in CA manipulated Kenya as friend was unable to get there for work recently. She was shocked that it is reported no where in anglo saxon media. Like a lot of stuff.
FO is advising against all but essential travel there.
Intimations of our future?
www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/kenya

Mistigri · 31/03/2018 11:58

Oddly enough, the Trans debate is a very good example of just that situation. And, instead of acknowledging that there is a conflict, and working out a way to discuss that conflict, and then to manage that conflict, we see instead the crazy situation where people on the Left are engaging in the old magical/religious thinking of dividing people into 'good' and 'evil'.

I think this is a really good general point, and it all stems from the dumbing down of politics and public discourse. Grown ups know how to compromise, to be pragmatic, they understand about trade offs. Our political debate, on all sides, seems to be led by overgrown toddlers (I rarely post on twitter, but I almost did this morning, to express my annoyance at some of the LibDems on my feed doing this - aren't they supposed to be the grown ups in the room?).

Unfortunately both sides in the trans debate have thrown their toys out of the pram - I find it all horribly tedious. I can see the mumsnet feminist's point of view in many respects, but I'm extremely dubious about the genuine threat posed to women. On the other hand I find most trans activists equally unappealing and mostly just stupid tedious people with a chip on their shoulders.

Away from strident internat debate and back in the real world, my piano teacher is trans - my assumption is that s/he has transitioned though s/he uses a man's name. I don't know how s/he identifies and I don't care, it is literally none of my business. (Though my DD says that my refusal to use a plural pronoun for a singular person shows my prejudice Wink). I dare say s/he is far more vulnerable than the strident middle class feminists who would like to make his/her choices their business.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 12:22

I think I'd argue against anything that characterises all the women as white and middle class, Mistigirl. I'm seeing that a lot at the moment.

Weirdly, it's exactly what happened in the ClarenceThomas/Anita Hall proceedings, where Anita Hall's Blackness was effectively erased.

I do think we are being strongly invited to simplify our thinking - radically - and that this has a lot to do with the idea of there being 'an emergency situation'. In emergency situations the space-time of political action and political thinking is radically foreclosed: there isn't the 'sapce' and the 'time' for darn-out, nuanced thinking. Instead, you are urged to make quick choices, between foreclosed options.

'Emergency situations' can be real (socio-politics often throws up situations where you have to make quick, pragmatic compromises) but they can also be engineered (the best example of this is in '1984', where there is a perpetual 'state of emergency', the state is constantly at war, and that constant state of war justifies curtailing of options, thought, and politcal possibility - but I thhink you can also see it when various political groups go on a crusade, urging their members that they are under siege, 'at war', and differences/questioning have to be set aside 'for now').

Not all the women are white and middle class. And not all white middle-class women have power, over everyone, all the time. It shifts, fluctuates and inheres in structures, relationships and functions rather than in the 'identified' body of the individual.

Nuance really, really matters. It matters particularly because - if you don't look at structure - you can end up in the situation where you think that simply giving a voice to a 'representative' of an oppressed group is the same as changing power structures that lead to oppression and silencing of that group.

It also matters because you can end up 'weighing' oppression, rather than seriously analysing the forces that lead to conflict and oppression.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2018 12:24

Unfortunately both sides in the trans debate have thrown their toys out of the pram

No disrespect meant, intended or offered, but "the trans debate" - for whatever reason - hasn't really breached the political classes yet and is of little or no interest to an awful lot of people. Especially if their main pull into politics is or was Brexit and how to stop it.

I am very aware that where I am saying that from is "alright for me". But unless the person on the Clapham omnibus understands and appreciates how the trans debate relates to everything else, it just leaves people (myself included) feeling a tad bewildered.

Maybe that's the whole point ? It seems a good way to sew dissent into a group united by one goal, to superimpose another series of Venn diagrams that will keep the whole busy for years Hmm.

At which point I am out of tinfoil Sad.

So to summarize:

  1. We started with Leave/Remain - a binary split which could not be accommodated by the existing Tory/Labour divide, so produced new groupings underneath.

  2. That evolves into the Trans debate - which conveniently also has no natural mapping to Tory/Labour, nor Leave/Remain.

  3. now, just for lolz it seems - we have the whole semitism/antisemitism debate emerge ....

So now we have a simultaneous equation of factors to plug into the Great British Election machine - where few (if any) arrangement of the variables leads to a consistent political definition.

I am painfully reminded of the Judean Peoples Front routine from "Life of Brian" - where the only winners were the Romans. Of course the real history was that the Jewish resistance ended after the First War. Possibly presciently ended when the resistance leaders took it in turns to commit suicide - after a rigged lot Hmm

(When modern events get too much, I escape into history).

The Roman-Jewish was is a fascinating exemplar of how the Romans thought and acted - as if there really was nothing stopping them. Even two millennia on, I am astounded by the siege of Alesia - but that's really just lego when you compare it to the siege of Masada

remind me, when is HS2 supposed to be ready ? And where are todays "Romans" ? Or should that be Silver Locusts ?

Violetparis · 31/03/2018 12:36

I agree with you Frumpety and want more facts and figures too.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 12:38

Stewart Home wrote a little pamphlet on 'splittism' in the Left, which boils down to the idea that the quest for political purity leads to both splitting and to an adoration of extremism. I do think that is what enabled the crazy situation of someone like Alan Bull being considered as a great candidate (by some - only some but sadly, enough) for a councillor. I can imagine that his characterisation of David Miliband as a puppet of a Rothschild-led conspiracy organisation would have led to doe-eyed adoration by those intoxicated by the idea of a 'pure' Leftism, and a surrendering of the critical abilities that would have made them think: "Hold on a minute, this is nuts. This guy needs to see a psychiatrist, not have his delusional thinking enabled by a position as a councillor."

For what it's worth, I don't think getting hammered in the local elections is going to lead to self-reflection. If that was on the cards, I think Shawcroft would have been urged to resign from the NEC.

I really would like to see moderates flooding back to the Labour Party. I think that is what would work. And I think it might actually be the best way to have any hope of getting rid of a right-wing government. The current situation fills me with absolute dread. I genuinely fear that May's release of paltry sums for the NHS may be enough to ensure her zombie, in thrall to the right wing Brexiteers, government staggers on for another 8 years.

Mistigri · 31/03/2018 12:53

Cat yes, that's fair. But reading the occasional mumsnet thread on the issue I've been struck firstly by how right wing and middle class many of the viewpoints are, and secondly how uninformed and binary the debate is. Some of those threads read very much like the threads we saw on the EU ref forum, prior to the referendum, in which supposed "feminists" whipped up hysteria about the impact on women of the European migration crisis. It's fine to discuss the impact migrants' cultural attitudes - it's not fine to use fake news and crocodile tears to whip up hatred of entire groups of people.

I find the whole thing really quite deplorable.

I can't really comment on the trans debate elsewhere, as I only really see this on mumsnet, but on this site there are distinct similarities between the debating techniques used in the trans threads and those used regarding Brexit and EU issues prior to the referendum.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 13:45

Unfortunately both sides in the trans debate have thrown their toys out of the pram - I find it all horribly tedious. I can see the mumsnet feminist's point of view in many respects, but I'm extremely dubious about the genuine threat posed to women. On the other hand I find most trans activists equally unappealing and mostly just stupid tedious people with a chip on their shoulders.

I hear what you are saying totally.

There is little no nuance to the argument.

There is a judgment from the word go that any questioning is personal and is an attack rather than trying to be constructive. My experience with my family is that there is a built up expectation that you are going to be hostile so the overly defensive position is virtually impossible to penetrate. The chip on the shoulder has to be experienced personally to understand its full force.

The 'transwomen are women' thing and the desire to close ANY debate is not coming from the feminist side. For the most part I think most women who are concerned would welcome a debate, if only to be reassured. Most of this is related to the absolutionist point from TRAs that biology is unimportant. I wish this was the case, but no about of wishing it wasn't changes it.

Strangely enough there is another good article from Quillette today from Debbie Hayton which argues for exactly this:
quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

For me the biggest issues don't lie first and foremost with The Great Toilet Debate. Its with the language and the replacement of sex with gender and the wider implications this has (which relate to consent, research and healthcare in general). Its the political side that I find particularly bothersome because that can lead to hidden problems because it leads to more of these political blind spots. Its the extremist nature and element of Trans Activism that I find utterly disturbing, and I do think that because this is the face of Trans that most are seeing in the media, its actually working against Trans interests by reinforcing fears.

Its the extremism and cult ideology that has led to problems in my family. Behaviour that I would not tolerate from anyone else I am expected to put up with and is excused. To be truly unprejudiced then unacceptable behaviour has to be called out for what it is. People can not be allowed to hide behind the trans label and I do think this is what is happening.

I wish that people like Debbie were getting the platform in media stream media, rather it being from the gobby extremists. The trouble is that, like with Islamic Extremists there is a media tendency to lean towards the extremist position in order to get the ratings / the clicks /advertising revenue which distorts the quality of debate.

There is little diversity presented in how there are multiple positions within the trans community. Or even within the LGBT community, where lesbians do seem to be all but missing from political life, which is again distorting things grossly.

I find so much of this a failure of the media, which has given raise to the power of extremist TRAs. Something that feminists really do not have.

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