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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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woman11017 · 31/03/2018 19:47

If that means I end up voting for Theresa May, or even JRM and a no-deal Brexit, then so be it

Which is why it's odd it's supposedly kicked off with such supposed vigour here.

Like misti said about odd parallel posting patterns on this forum, and all sorts of malarkey going on on twitter.

British people were always pretty odd about sex and sexuality, which has made this a splendid issue to divide the opposition parties. In countries which haven't got such an endemically f**ed up attitude to sex, legal rights and women's rights, it's been possible to accommodate the trans issue, without wrecking a constitutional opposition: see Germany, France. In this country, with its own particularly extreme economic, racialised and sexual inequity: it's inevitable there is a field day for the usual suspects: in Rotherham; in taking Women's Officers' jobs in the Labour party, and in abuse on lib dem and labour social media accounts towards women, and in the green party defining women as non men.

Convenient that we are having to waste our time trying to defend our own Women's Rights while barbarians are taking over our country and deny us of all ECHR rights and EU citizens' rights. UKIP/tories and the SWP are so moronic and aggressive that it is tragically easy for interlopers to fake and stir this issue.

If CA, SCL and the rest of the Psy Ops nudniks have been able to take down a country in an idiotic advisory poll, they can definitely do the same to all (the lib dems and greens are as awful) the opposition parties, with this issue.

While we allow the brexit/ barbarians ( sorry, just watching Kenneth Clark's Civilisation on BBC archive, and brexit looks very like what the barbarians tried to do last time) get on with what they really want to do to the economy, legislature and constitution.

Another win for them.

The way this issue is being played out, is starting to smell funny too.

I'm still fighting for our Women's Rights for sure, but wondering in whose benefit this divided opposition is. Well, not really wondering tbh.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 31/03/2018 19:54

I'd quite like a gender neutral passport. Not because I'm gender fluid, I'm not in the slightest, but for the same reason I've always been a Ms. And probably because I'm still pissed off at the post office person who tried to tell me it's illegal to not be a Mrs if you're married. Men don't get told shit like that. They also didn't know the rules regarding citizenship prior to being born in 1983. Angry

Completely off topic and point missing but still...

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 20:09

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
BREAKING: Christine Shawcroft quits Labour’s NEC “with immediate effect” over antisemitism row. “It is clear that my continued membership of the NEC has become a distraction for the Party and an excuse for endless intrusive media harassment of myself, my family and friends.”
Christine Shawcroft adds: “I reaffirm my complete opposition to antisemitism and my abhorrence of Holocaust denial, and support all measures to tackle this within the Party. I pledge my full energy to securing for our country the Labour govt under Jeremy Corbyn that it needs."

Welcome to the Labour NEC Eddie Izzard.

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Mistigri · 31/03/2018 20:16

If that means I end up voting for Theresa May, or even JRM and a no-deal Brexit, then so be it

You're making my point for me, about how this debate is being weaponised to achieve political aims.

You'd rather vote for a government that is in bed with people who think the world is under 6000 years old and that it's better for women to die than for a foetus to be aborted? Really?

I agree some of the "feminist"* position on trans rights (with some nuance which I'm not going to go into), but I disagree that this is a bigger issue for women than (for example) universal credit, or northern Irish abortion laws, or the defunding of legal aid and women's refuges. All of which are either Tory policies, or de facto supported by Tories.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 20:23

I think the resignation of Shawcross is a very good signal. I'm not prepared to be totally doom and gloom: it's really important to see positives when they arrive, or you're not seeing the whole picture - that's as bad as refusing to see the negatives.

Shawcroft's resignation is a clear, clear sign that Labour's leadership is listening to its wider electorate. Thank goodness. I have to say, I didn't think it was going to happen. But it has.

The further positive of this is that it strongly implies they are going to have to listen to pressure on the issue of Brexit.

So - there's everything to play for. Grin

And, again, I have to say, I'd pretty much given up hope of this. I was pretty sure that the way the internal electorate numbers stack up, the Labour leadership would not pressure Shawcroft to resign - and that would pretty much have told us that the Labour leadership was more concerned about keeping Corbyn in place than anything else, including election results.

This move tells us that isn't the case. So, pressure is going to work.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 20:24

Back to yet another divisive topic.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43606085
On the tit for tat expulsion of diplomats in the wake of the poisoning of the Skripals:
A UK Foreign Office spokeswoman said: "The Russian response is regrettable but in light of Russia's previous behaviour, we anticipated a response.

"However, this doesn't change the facts of the matter: the attempted assassination of two people on British soil, for which there is no alternative conclusion other than that the Russian state was culpable."

I am puzzled. That is odd wording. It is not an assertion of fact.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 20:35

Mistigri, Northern Ireland abortion laws are not all that NI women are facing - see the not guilty verdict in the recent very prominent rape trial involving several rugby players. Laws are one thing and societal attitudes are another thing entirely.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 20:37

Mistigri I'm like cat in hoping that all the so called progressive parties get their head out of their arses first.

If they don't then I don't think Labour will in effect be too much different being in bed with people who think the world is under 6000 years old and that it's better for women to die than for a foetus to be aborted. You are talking about people who twist FGM to be about their identity. People who talk about how its fine for there to be 'collateral damage' as look as they gets them what they want. People who think that its ok to promote suicide because it helps them get what they want. People who make excuses for holocaust denial.

The dehumanising, the lack of respect for the life of other human beings, the anti-science sentiments do not just come from the right. They are most definitely also coming from an educated arrogant middle class left too.

That's my point. I fear them both.

Anything that helps with that kick up the arse, is good in my book.

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thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 20:43

People pick their focus, Misti, we all have different life-stories and a limited amount of time and energy.

I'm glad other people are making a noise about the potential implications for women about self-id.

For me, I'm absolutely terrified of Brexit - a Tory-led Brexit - and cuts to public services.

I work with children, and see, day to day, the impacts of the cuts. Contrary to many people on Mumsnet, I know that not all Londoners are well-off. I work with too many children living in abject poverty. Actual.real.abject.poverty. What distinguishes their lives from others in poverty across the world is the access to public goods: free education, the NHS, clean, free water - along with (sometimes, not always) welfare. Cutbacks in those areas kill people.

And as for the NHS ... well, gf-i-l is, I think, dying. He's dying now - rather than in 10/15 years - because his heart operation was put off twice and he ended up waiting just under a year. As a result, some aspects of the operation were no longer possible. And he's dying, now. Of course, it's not provable - but I think we're right.

The operation was delayed because of NHS cuts. Just the way my (less important) treatment was delayed. The delays to me meant that I had to stop work, and I ceased to be able to dress myself/get out of the house. For him, the consequences have been more serious.

We're not alone. This has happened to many people. And you can add to that the people who have lived the results of cutbacks to mental health services, have lived the impact of the assault on disability rights/benefits, the cutbacks to benefits generally ...

So, all this really matters to me. It will only get worse, so much worse, if we have to live through a Conservative-led Brexit. I actually can't bear to think about how bad it might be.

I can't wish for a hard Brexit - even if it might, ultimately, bring about a return to the EU, and an end to the Conservative Party for a generation. I thin people would die. I really do. They'll die from fore-shortened lives as a result of decreased access to healthcare and the necessities to live a hopeful, healthy life. I really can't find it in myself to see them as 'necessary casualties' - I'm just not that much of an idealist.

Anyway, that's me, and my issues. Other people have their focus. And, somehow, we have to negotiate all those different focuses.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 20:46

I have to say, I think Red is right in identifying me as someone who thinks the Left need to get sorted out and in a shape to get into power as their first priority.

And that makes me a 'Centrist Mum'.

And I don't care about that.

And I also think that I don't want to be in a 'progressive party' whose idea of 'progress' means telling me to shut up about a whole load of things.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 20:47

Misti The Tories will dump the DUP the minute they no longer need the votes of their MPs
It is a cynical very temporary alliance, even for a Tory party that has swung to the right
Only a tiny number of Tory MPs share their extreme religious views.

However, the Labour party is deeply infected with anti-semitism, with hard left authoritarianism and with this TRA crap.
This is not a temporary situation.
Its leader has befriended groups with horrific records on human rights & womens rights, far worse than the DUP.

It ignores the continuing grooming scandals, ignores helpless working class victims - a Labour party doing this ! -
but cynically tries to appease some offended voters by opposing FOM for E27 / EFTA citizens
presumably thinking that punishing anyone furrin would do.

imo, Corbyn, Milne & co are far more dangerous than May, even JRM

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 20:51

However, the NHS would get more money under Corbyn and would not be (further) sold off
Benefits would not be cut further

… all of the above, unless the IMF get called in because of Corbynomics combining badly with Brexit
The IMF might insist on swingeing cuts

So, it's not an easy matter to decide on the least horrible choice.

mrsreynolds · 31/03/2018 20:53

I'm inclined to agree bigchoc

It's incredible what labour has become

And indefensible

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 20:54

To be clear: My long post was primarily motivated - from my own position within the progressive Left - by a suspicion that there are a fair number within the Left who genuinely think that a Hard Brexit will lead to a glorious revolution.

I think that from having worked with Hard Leftists over the years not from any conversations I've had recently - so I might be being really, really unfair, here.

But that, really, is what motivates and drives my moderation. I really do want a Party and a politics in general that is 'for the many, not the few'.

And I still wish we didn't have FPTP.

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 21:02

That's why I'm taking Shawcroft's departure from the NEC as a good sign, BigChoc. It means the leadership are responding to pressure from the wider electorate - not just the Corbyn-hard left grouping within the Party that keep Corbyn in place.

We need to keep the pressure up. There's too much at stake to let the main opposition party become a hostage to a minority.

I've been really heartened by the fight-back. It's happened on a number of fronts. It has to keep on going.

And, more generally, I think we have to mount a general fightback against this cluster of political ideas - and the situation - that has enabled this capture of the centre by extremes.

I'm absolutely sure that identity politics - in its current manifestation - is a factor in this. There is something about the facile gifting of 'good' or 'evil' to an identity - rather than looking at structures of oppression - that lends itself incredibly easily to political extremes and cultist thinking.

frumpety · 31/03/2018 21:21

cat had a google and not sure I am doing it right , can you link to the stuff you mentioned earlier from Anne marie Smith , struggling Blush

thecatfromjapan · 31/03/2018 21:38

frumpety This is her book outlining some of her ideas but I have also read 2 essays by her that go a bit further. There's one looking at the work of Chantal Mouffe and Ernesto Laclau that makes her argument that it's not enough to have 'temporary alliances' around limited political goals, we also need to create the means of discussing the constitution of those alliances an goals.

I have to apologise, I don't know what that is called, or the collection it's in.

The other essay is on Rastafarian identity - which sounds like a weird, cultural studies type of subject - but it isn't , it's a really interesting take on identity politics.

Again, I can't, for the life of me, remember where I came across that.

I promise I will do some digging.

You'll see by the dates that I'm very out of touch. I think I was quite 'burned out' a couple of decades ago - but I'm finding this present situation so interesting (and not entirely in a good way) that I find I really want to start learning again.

If you have any suggestions as to what I should read, I would LOVE to hear them. Flowers

Mistigri · 31/03/2018 21:46

People pick their focus, Misti, we all have different life-stories and a limited amount of time and energy.

For sure. Difficult choices between bad options.

But you can't claim to be standing for women who don't have a voice while simultaneously voting (in connaissance de cause) for policies which will make their lives narrower, poorer and less safe.

And you don't get to play holier than thou about women's rights while brushing off a £1 billion alliance with a bunch of Old Testament fundamentalists and woman haters.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 21:46

You know there is a moment where you go fuck, what NOW?

The text at the bottom reads:
^Jeremy Corbyn faced a revolt from women Labour MPs last night over claims his party has failed to take action against a male MP accused of wife-beating.
A meeting of Labour women MPs - attended by ex-Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman - turn to page 4.^

Its a never ending car crash.

I'm not sure I even want to know this story.

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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woman11017 · 31/03/2018 21:52

More incoming.
@sarahditum
Thangam Debbonaire MP attended the #EnoughIsEnough protest. Her CLP (Bristol West) has summoned her to "explain her actions" this Thursday. Jeremy Corbyn is visiting to region on Tuesday, so now would be a perfect time for him to give his full support to Debbonaire.

I wish they weren't doing this to those who fight anti semitism in labour at this time of year. And otoh it proves your red and bcf's points about this 'labour' party.

ALittleAubergine · 31/03/2018 21:55

I don't agree with the view that corbyn is more dangerous than may.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 22:02

BigChoc, the Tories and DUP may part company officially, but there are elements of the DUP platform that resonate deeply with the ordinary Tory party membership and with Tory MPs too. Preserving the Union (with NI and with Scotland) is a rallying cry for the Tory bedrock just as much as it is for the rank and file of the DUP.

mathanxiety · 31/03/2018 22:04

I don't either, Aubergine.

The alternative to seeing the Labour party taken hostage by TRAs and antiSemites is not voting Tory.

It's joining Labour and fighting.

Icantreachthepretzels · 31/03/2018 22:12

I'm with cat in that I fear more than anything a conservative led hard Brexit. I agree with all the points about the trans ideology that we get on MN and I am very angry about the way women's rights are being trampled over and women are being erased. BUT - I do think all this gender identity naval gazing (from the TRAs not feminists) is a sign of first world privilege and indolence. They only have time for all this identity politics because everything else is so easy.

But with the coming of Brexit - especially a hard one - Britain will cease to be a first world country - and fast. Identity politics will die a death simply because no one will have the time/energy/ resources or patience to put up with the bullshit - or fight for a cause which doesn't actually impact them. The TRAs will back down once the they don't have the brocialists supporting them. And even they won't have the time to fight for recognition of their ladyfeelz when they're fighting just to survive.

I consider the trans rights vs women's rights to be something of a luxury that I wish we had world enough and time to fight against. But disaster is looming - and that battle will simply cease to exist once the disaster hits. Starving, unemployed people will not be getting into twitter spats about identity and inner essence. And those deluded enough to try will be met with shirt shrift from their erstwhile supporters. A government trying to deal with the fall out of permanent operation stack, empty shelves and civil unrest will not have time to coddle men who want to redefine the word woman. Maybe a silver lining of Brexit.

However - if brexit goes as badly as JRM wants it to go - women's rights will still be under threat, obviously from a pared back/ non existent NHS, from maternity leave no longer being a right, I'm sure women workers will fare worse than male ones when we lose our working rights, women's shelters and refuges will have to close, funding for women's sports or women in science will be slashed, increased poverty will push more women into prostitution. And if the country actually descends into chaos and rioting (as I really fear it will in the case of no deal brexit) then increased crime - general VAWG as well as sex crimes will sky rocket - and there either won't be law enforcement to deal with it, or they'll be too busy fire fighting.

Above all other problems facing us - brexit has to be stopped. We cannot hope to fix any other problems in the country if life as we know it comes to a grinding halt a year today. Voting for the party that will lead us to utter ruin because they have a slightly less batshit (but still not good) take on the women hating hot topic du jour seems very short sighted.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2018 22:15

Jeremy Corbyn faces a damaging new anti-Semitism scandal as a bombshell dossier reveals the full extent of anti-Jewish, violent and abusive comments on Facebook groups mobilising his most fervent supporters.
Twelve senior staff working for the Labour leader and the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, are members of groups containing anti-Semitic and violent comments, including praise for Adolf Hitler and threats to kill Theresa May, the Prime Minister.
The most comprehensive investigation conducted into 20 of the biggest pro-Corbyn Facebook groups - numbering 400,000 members - found routine attacks on Jewish people, including Holocaust denial.
The dossier was compiled over two months by whistleblowers working with the Sunday Times in the groups, who gained access to restricted membership groups. They uncovered more than 2000 racist, anti-Semitic, misogynistic, violent and abusive messages.
Lord Carlile, the former independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, said the comments appeared to breach hate-crime laws: The investigation found:

  • Posts including support for Adolf Hitler, with one saying the Nazi leader "should have finished off the job" and another claiming the deaths of 6m Jews in the Holocaust "was a big lie!".
  • A Labour supporter, Patrick Haseldine, who posted an image of the Israeli flag on one Labour ggroup on Facebook, with the swastika replacing the Star of David.
  • Ian Love, a Momentum organiser on one of the groups, who claimed the former prime minister Tony Blair was "Jewish to the core", and told The Sunday Times last week he believed the Rothschild banking family controlled most of the world's finances.
The facebook groups - which include We Support Jeremy Corbyn, with 68,000 members - have played a key role in helping Corbyn win two leadership contexts and boost his performance in the last general election. He is under strong pressure to confront the anti-Semitism in his party. The abusive messages regularly targeted Jewish public figures including the Labour MP Luciana Berger and Jonathan Arkush, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews. There are also many violent threats against politicians. Berger said she and her staff had gone to police about the abuse they had received from left-wingers, including one email urging her to kill herself. IN an article for the Sunday Times, Berger says: "Where people indulge in illegal racist activity I will always use the full force of the law to pursue a prosecution. I will continue to do that even when they are people from the left".
Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
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