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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?

980 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/03/2018 18:33

After over a year in the public dominion, SUDDENLY the mainstream media have picked up the story on breeches by the Leave campaigns over election rules. This comes off the back of the Cambridge Analytic scandal with Facebook data having been stolen and their offices (finally) being raided.

This has now led to the involvement of solicitors Bindmans (who were involved with the Gina Miller case and are associated with prominent Remain Jolyon Maugam) and have released a 53 page document they say is evidence of collaboration between Vote Leave and BeLeave campaigns. They state effectively that there is no 'smoking gun' rather a 'drip drip drip' effect of cumulative information (as Sam Coates succinctly sums up).

What difference does this make?

Both the Electoral Commission and the ICO have very little power and in law there doesn't appear to technically be any recourse. This needs to be addressed now as an extreme priority.

The prospect of another referendum being run in such circumstances, is alarming. Without an inquiry into what went wrong, how could you prevent any of this from happening again? There would also be feelings of some kind of establishment stitch-up to reverse the referendum, which could have major implications for trust in democracy in its own right.

There seems to be no easy answer here. And Brexit increasingly looks to be the turkey that was feared, though not exactly in the way the deeply flawed remain campaign made out.

Noises from the disgruntled Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings read like almost a threat to go after the EHCR which is just as poorly understood as the EU. And there is every reason to believe that Lexiter types would also be supportive if that meant they could take property from private ownership and put into state ownership without having to properly compensate.

Worth noting is that Cummings originally deleted his twitter account when this first started to surface. A least one of the whistleblowers was and still is a committed Leaver. Cummings seems rattled, but Cummings was previously on record as saying he wanted to destroy our existing establishment. He's not rattled about the damage to democracy nor I suspect even leaving the EU; he's rattled at prospect of being 'caught'. Make of that what you will.

With that in mind, shouldn't we be the mildest bit cautious about the intentions of Chris Wylie when he says we should have another referendum? Should we be cynical, rather than just accepting this as being great news and getting excited about an opportunity to reverse Brexit? Worst still our failure to be able to trust anything, in itself, is a sign of just how weak our democracy has become.

Are the efforts to dig up a story which should have been dealt with twelve months ago, going to help? Could they cause more damage and further risk our now seemingly ever fragile democracy?

I don't know. Impossible to tell. As Westministenders has said from very early on, the referendum wasn't just about leaving the EU but also a turning of backs on the concepts and principles of democracy. Only now is this really beginning to show its true ugliness to the masses. Even now, few see the real dangers here. Many are so blinded by the hatred of their political 'enemies' they turn a blind eye to their own side's zealotry and dogma.

The danger from the far right was always much more clear to see, but the danger from the far left as it grows bolder is also starting to be alarming.

If you think this is merely about leaving the EU, you are wrong. Even if we do stay in the EU after everything, we may still lose what it is to be a real functioning democracy.

Unless we promote these principles and involve all in society and give them a stake in the future; either inside or outside the EU we will be in a whole world more trouble.

And if that wasn't bad enough. Russian spies and murders plus the appointment of warmonger Bolton at the Whitehouse.

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Thread gallery
54
Talkstotrees · 28/03/2018 22:13

You’ve probably seen this, but jic

Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
Westminstenders: Why didn't you whistle whilst you worked?
WifeofDarth · 28/03/2018 22:18

A bit late to the bit about lack of ability to debate complex issues. I thought this article was interesting and relevant
www.theguardian.com/global/2018/mar/18/the-power-of-saying-no-change-your-life-psychology-william-leith
It suggests that our brains are being trained to want a quick fix for everything - quick food, coffee, instant entertainment and news, and that our long term analytical brain is not getting a look in. So no one has the attention span to make long term decisions, engage in tricky issues, and just falls on easy 'solutions'.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/03/2018 22:20

Lucy Fisher
@LOS_Fisher
NEW: Corbyn has done an interview defending Jewish Voice for Labour, the controversial group that organised Monday's counter-demo.
Unlikely to go down well with JLC & Board of Deputies, who asked Corbyn today to engage with main (not fringe) Jewish groups

mrsreynolds · 28/03/2018 22:24

It's not about how useless and self serving the Tories are...'twas ever thus.
This is about having no decent opposition and the little opposition there is devouring itself over policy like a ouroboros
Christ what a mess

thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 22:25

Apparently, the same interview, he said it was 'up to individual local organisations' when asked about the discussion about deselecting David Lammy, too.

I saw it briefly on Twitter but a. can't find further details about who - and with what sort of standing - was discussing the deselection of David Lammy (I'm thinking a Momentum Facebook group and I don't know how much of a position they have in Lammy's constituency)
b. if it was that same interview, and if there was more context to Corbyn's reply.

thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 22:33

I'm beginning to think that any Labour member who voted for Corbyn and has now resigned as a result of disillusionment has a duty to a. re-join and b. go along to constituency meetings and try and stop the batshitness.

They voted this in. They need to help put it right. Walking away and leaving it to other people to sort out isn't good enough.

I know a lot of people like many of the values Corbyn represents - they desperately want something that isn't New Labour - and I know a lot of Momentum members are great people, passionate about grassroots politics and real change BUT there is a really unpleasant side being unleashed here.

The whole drama that is being pushed by elements of Momentum/the group around Corbyn - that they are being opposed and undermined by evil New Labour forces - is an Orwellian 'state of war manoeuvre. The purpose is to keep people feeling they have to protect Corbyn at all costs and not question that nasty element.

And it is nasty.

Lammy is an incredibly decent MP.

Denying the Holocaust should be completely, utterly unacceptable. (I cannot even believe I'm typing this. FFS.)

Brexit is going to lead to people in desperate economic and social situations.

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 22:33

That doesn't sound good, re 'Jewish Voice', pain and Sad for Lammy cat it is absolutely blatant now who is running the party.

I keep in mind with Wylie in particular.
Any more stuff on this red? Rally tomorrow for 'Fair Democracy' with him, outside HOC. Wonder what is really happening. I do miss trust.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 22:40

https://en.mogaznews.com/World-News/856912/Labour-in-MELTDOWN-over-anti-Semitism.html

Christine Shawcroft, who was only appointed in January, stood down after it emerged that she had e-mailed colleagues to demand the activist be let back into the party.

The activist, Alan Bull, a Labour candidate for Peterborough Council, had been suspended for posting a link on Facebook to a fake news article titled:
'International Red Cross Report Confirms the Holocaust of Six Million Jews is a Hoax.' Angry

It was accompanied with a picture of the famous gates of Auschwitz, with the phrase 'Arbeit Macht Frei' [work sets you free] replaced with 'Muh Holocaust'.AngryAngry
< suspended ? - he should have been booted out on his arse >

This phrase is apparently used by opponents of Israel to allege that whenever anyone criticises it to a Jewish person, they will start talking about the Holocaust to deflect attention. Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 22:43

Article also refers to
Labour MPs who attended Monday's anti-Semitism rally in Westminster were deluged with hate mail for 'standing with Tory Jews'

The hard left is getting very nasty
and the hard right is interfering in elections

I wonder if anyone is orchestrating the 2 sides ?

thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 22:43

It's absolutely appalling, BigChoc.

There will still be Corbynist shills on Twitter - and in real life - rallying the faithful, saying this is just an attempt to depose the Leader and avert the UK from the one chance of the golden path towards socialism. Which is terrifying - because how much are people prepared to tolerate and overlook when given that line?

It's just crazy. Utterly, utterly crazy.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 22:46

Forget everything else about the story, this is the important bit:

James Morris @ jamesdmorris
If Christine Shawcroft’s email [arguing holocaust denial is fine in some contexts] hadn’t found its way to @SamCoatesTimes, she would still be in charge of disciplinary proceedings

Someone obviously thought the way to deal with this was by involving the press because the party itself were fucking up handling this.

Adrian Masters @ Adrianmasters84
Number 10 confirms that the Prime Minister will be spending her Easter break in Wales. As she did last Easter …
There will be ‘an element of walking’ says spokesman.

Another GE folks?

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thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 22:46

There is a horrible overlap between Russian-bot fake news and Cobynist-bots with regard to the Skripal case, for sure. Lots and lots of 'the poisoning is fake, a set-up by the UK government to turn people against Russia and turn attention away from May's government'.

I wish it was orchestrated by dark forces but I have a horrible feeling that some of it is just people who are genuinely travelling high and light, intoxicated with the dream of being on a crusade.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 22:48

interesting, Darth Basically the "inner chimp" is taking over, ever more often.

I remember back in the 1960s seeing a science clip of a chimp's brain being stimulated with electrodes, to cause various primitive emotions & reactions.
Stimulation has become far more sophisticated and ubiquitous

thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 22:49

Oh my goodness. I think James Morris is right. That is very, very depressing. Sad

And Shock at the walking holiday/GE. Surely not?

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 22:49

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
Calls for Christine Shawcroft to be axed from Labour’s NEC - having stepped down from the disputes panel - starting now

Remarkable that she's still in this position.

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DrivenToDespair · 28/03/2018 22:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2018 22:51

red There are a lot of nasty creepy-crawlies just visible as the big stones have shifted slightly
Most of the nasties are hidden and will likely remain so.

thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 22:54

To be fair, Sam Coates, on Twitter, is also suggesting that Shawcross went against the Corbyn inner circle with her position ('It's just an inter-constituency struggle') - that, plus the fact that the email had a very limited circulation, might mean she's been given the push as a signifier that Corbyn is getting tough on anti-semitism ...

(I'm just putting this reading out there ...)

woman11017 · 28/03/2018 22:57

intoxicated with the dream of being on a crusade.
They were ever thus. 'Crusade' is the right word too. Sad
Most of the nasties are hidden and will likely remain so
Yup.
Shawcross and Starmer are the patsies for Corbyn, and his boys.

thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 23:04

I'm wondering if Lansmann's getting seriously cold feet about the direction of travel with Momentum. Any other ideas.

You know, woman, a lot of people have put a lot of faith in Corbyn and Momentum. They both tap into a lot of idealism. I worry that people will become disillusioned, and I worry about what will happen to all that enthusiasm and idealism then. I really hope it doesn't lead to disengagement of a lot of fundamentally very decent, very committed people.

thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 23:04

'Any other ideas?'

(Missed out the '?'. I'm wondering if any of you have any views on that.)

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 23:05

John mann @ johnmannmp
Why was she not sacked on Sunday? Why did it require a leak to a newspaper? Others should be resigning too over an attempted cover up.

Remind me. That senior aid who advised Corbyn not to apologise. Wasn't Milne was it? And thats what all this is really about?

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RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 23:08

Paul Waugh @ paulwaugh
Jennie Formby seconded Christine Shawcroft as the chair of disputes cttee. Will she now say she regrets that? Others warned the move would spell trouble.

Or this.

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RedToothBrush · 28/03/2018 23:11

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/03/commons-confidential-momentum-s-christine-shawcroft-loses-comrades-furious?amp
Commons confidential: Momentum’s Christine Shawcroft loses comrades with furious Whatsapp messages

From the 22nd March

Frustrated by her inability to persuade Labour’s National Executive Committee members to drop disciplinary charges in two constituency cases, three horrified sources recounted how, while still chairing the hearing, a seething Shawcroft pinged a couple of splenetic WhatsApp messages to a 25-strong left group. The first unwise denunciation – “you bunch of fucking wankers” – was followed swiftly by the perhaps unwiser “I want to kill you all”. Yelled in the room, the insult might have proved sufficient grounds to summon Shawcroft on an abuse charge before the very panel she convenes. How to lose friends and alienate comrades.

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thecatfromjapan · 28/03/2018 23:16
Shock

That's hideous, Red.

Here is more background on the Alan Bull situation, from the New Statemsan.

You might notice

a. The overlap between Bull's rants about Rothschild backers of Miliband and the anti-semitic dogwhistle's Brexit-trolls were spewing on Mumsnet during the Referendum.

b. The 'It's all a plot by rightist forces in the Labour Party!! Enemy within!! Abandon your critical faculties!' tone of the responses to the whistleblowers in Bull's ward.