Westminstenders: Exit 2020 Vision

[RedToothBrush]

Yet it is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and the superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, capturers and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people, who thereupon take leave of sanity and responsibility. And it occasionally happens that this underworld becomes a political power and changes the course of history.
Norm Cohn ‘Warrant for Genocide’ 1970

(As referenced by Nick Cohen).

We have a deal (or bits of a deal). Bino til Dec 2020. Then the cliff?

Still a long way to go. It sounds better than it could be. But worse than it initially seems.

Sos You seem very angry - with us. You do realise that none of us were actually in Thatcher's government, don't you?

Your anger seems to be causally flawed: you're reading a continued anger as to the - completely avoidable, repetitively negative - results of Brexit as

a. related to other negative events
b. implying a lack of concern for said other negative events
c. implying a responsibility for said other negative events.

I don't get it.
Sometimes it seems as though you have swallowed the whole Leavers Bible whole, particularly this idea that anyone pro-Remain is some member of a nebulous, free-floating, uncaring 'elite'.

Now, you know that's not true - I've shared with you points of similarity between the information you've chosen to share on-line about your life and my own - so I find it incredibly, incredibly strange - and, I'll be frank, quite rude, hostile and aggressive - when you take this line.

And I'm not going to start on what I think about brass bands because, actually, my memory of them was that they were for upper working class, lower middle class boys in the main. Which is a whole other rant about the misty-eyed nostalgia of the male Left which I'm not going into here.

woman and BigChoc I wonder. It would be nice if it did, wouldn't it?

I have to say I did enjoy watching Isabelle Oakshott get all cross with Carole Cadwallader on Marr this morning. Cages are rattled. She kept asking when Carole was going to investigate the remain campaign. I'm sure she could do that herself, seeing as she's also a journalist.

I wonder if the BBC will report on the anti-anti-semitic demonstration......

Feedback on radio 4 are doing a special Brexit edition if anyone fancies emailing.

I'm not angry cat just passionate.

By the way, the whole "the anti-semitism smears are just smears, what people rally mean is 'pro-Palestinian' " doesn't really wash with me.

There may well be an element of truth in that but, for the record, I am signed up to the PSC. One of the many emails I received from them pointed out that the single greatest support the UK had given over the years was EU membership.

I've held back from saying that because I know it's a bit divisive, and this is a Brexit-related issues thread.

Frankly, Corbyn's wishy-washiness over staying in the EU puts any support he's given over the years in the dustbin. So he can get stuffed on that one.

Cat sadly you are misinformed about the modern day brass band, but I forgive you.

I'll accept the re-education and the forgiveness, Sos.

I am amazed at the lack of compassion and basic understanding of maths that Sostenueoto is demonstrating towards both the 15 individuals concerns and the broader issues illustrated.

As others have pointed out much more eloquently, it is not the point that UK brass bands etc have good reputations, it is that the opportunity for players to compete for places on a bigger literally stage is being taken away from them

It's not a difficult point to understand

Actually Sos some of us are more than capable of being saddened by a loss of opportunity wherever we see it and whoever it effects.
But the thing is - a loss of opportunity right at the very top has a trickle down effect that will squeeze opportunities for everyone else.
As those of international standard are forced to fight for national places, those of national standard get forced out. They play for lower tier orchestras. Those that were of the lower tier standard get forced out of professional music completely and end up playing in amateur bands as a hobby. Meaning those that played as a hobby - who were never going to be pro - but who should have enjoyed all the opportunities playing in an orchestra (even an amateur one) can bring are left playing in their bedrooms - or not bothering at all. It might not affect hundreds and hundreds of people- but the loss of opportunity for even one person is a sad thing. And to be lost on the altar of brexit is unforgivable.

Less opportunity is less opportunity - in any walk of life - and it is never a positive thing.

I'm not angry cat just passionate
What exactly is that you're passionate about? because it sure as hell isn't increased opportunities for young musicians.

Cat because I sometimes disagree with some things on here does not mean I'm a leaver. I'm allowed to disagree, abstain or agree, its called free choice. Please do not affix labels to me. The only person allowed to do that is me.

Good point pretzel.

Why music is my passion, of course!

what people rally mean is 'pro-Palestinian' " doesn't really wash with me yup.
It would be nice if it did, wouldn't it It'd be a 10% poll lead. I'm not completely sure they believe in representative democracy though.

Don't be silly pretzels, you know full well we aren't allowed to care for more than one thing at a time anymore

I think about all those children living in deprived areas who will never realise their aspirations or talents whether music, the arts, academically or in whatever way. Yes its a shame about 15 players in the European youth orchestra, but if we talk relatively they are nothing to the numbers who will never have the opportunity to play a musical instrument whether for pleasure or professionally. And that's before we leave the EU.

Cross posted cat my apologies

15 less doesn't make that any better, though, Sos. And Brexit is going to make lack of opportunities for the less well-off far, far worse. You know that, I know that.

Music provision in state schools is pretty poor. As a rule, if your child is going to learn an instrument, you as a parent are going to pay for it privately, or in some kind of subsidised format - all hard, if not impossible, to access for lower-income families.

One of the ways that children in state primary schools access music free of charge - with actual instruments - is through link-ups with orchestras providing performances, workshops, tuition and lending of instruments.

There's precious little as it is. Losing any amount of very little is terrible. All of this is going to shrink with Brexit and the shrinking of GDP. Inequalities - especially in areas such as music and the other arts - are going to harden.

Losing opportunities for 15 musicians may seem small, negligible really, in the face of present inequalities, but it's just the canary dying that gives you an indication of the poison ahead.

But us leaving the EU doesn't increase the opportunity for deprived children to learn an instrument! If anything it will almost certainly decrease that opportunity - and not just for the most deprived. As education budgets tighten it will be the arts subject that get slashed first!
And you have no idea what background these 15 members of the EU orchestra came from! They may be children from deprived backgrounds who were realising their dreams and now won't!
I'm afraid your anger and your arguments are all muddled up and going round in circles.
Poor children's lack of access to cultural education is a completely separate issue to our losing the EU orchestra. We could have fixed the one without losing the other. But losing the one means that the other is far less likely to get fixed.

Why music is my passion, of course!
Just not any of them there foreign orchestras - and the talented British youngsters who get to play in them!

Well the Tories have been doing that for years driventodespair.

Yes they have - so fight against austerity and tory policy (all homegrown) and not the EU!

... and it may seem a small point but, of course, the withdrawal of eligibility for FSM from many children (6,000 in my borough) is going to reduce access to music tuition for all those children - because FSM is generally used as a passport for free/subsidised music tuition. It's not fair. Lots of people will say that it isn't that big an issue - that the issue of access to a meal is more important. Well, they may well be right about the second part of the statement (food is a primary need) but, actually, losing access to something like free/subsidised music tuition does matter. Why should these children lose it?

There's an analogy there with the 15 musicians - it may seem small, but why should be stop caring about any of it? Why should we accept any of these unacceptable and avoidable things? It's just letting your boundaries get pushed further and further back into the previously unacceptable.

(See - I'm very capable of caring about a number of things at once.)

True cat

I too care about many things, but some things more than others, just being honest here.

@J_amesp
Momentum appears to be a volunteer troll farm. That’s what I’m learning live on Twitter. Love a good social media experiment.

Corbyn and his base's anti semitism is playing as badly as brexists' fury at the CA revelations tonight.