The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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No kicking off on this thread!!!

Bear has kindly set up another (non-pub) thread, so that leaves this one free for the Brexiteers!!!

Good speech by Theresa May today - onwards to Brexit 🍻🇬🇧

It was a quote - ergo not my own words.

Political, economic or geographical?

You decide.

Brain drain and population decline not generally seen as positives.

Pumping in so much money from outside that it distorts local economic decision making not generally a positive.

Poland could in fact be equated with the "Left behind" analysis for the UK Northern Brexit vote. However that would be as simplistic as indeed the "Left behind" analysis is. Nevertheless far more plausible than an assertion that Brexit caused what was already happening long before 2016.

And yes, I absolutely voted leave to control FOM into this country - why have you got such a problem with that?

Because FOM was never the big problem you make it out to be.

We could have introduced stricter controls whilst in the EU.

We are now going to have less access, pay for the access we do have, need to develop technological solutions which will cost a fortune and be generally worse off, all because you didn't like a few immigrants.

all because you didn't like a few immigrants

'A few' is a bit of an understatement.

And she didn't say she 'didn't like' immigrants - just that immigration should be controlled.

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation "you decide" well exactly. Most people can make a reasonable assumption when a term is used. Like I did when I read the quote you choose to use. It's quite easy.

If we don't leave now, we will become ever more subsumed into the 'so much more than a trading bloc' and this is what I fear.This was part of the roadmap to WW2

I have no idea what historical reference you are making. What was part of the road map to WW2?

it could have been controlled within the EU.

You cannot begin to demonstrate how any of the costs of Brexit are worth the 'few' problem immigrants.

@howabout I am not suggesting that Brexit will cause the issues in Poland. I can see where you are coming from with the 'left behind' analysis. My solution to this is not to run away from these problems and wash our hands of them.

Appeasement - leaving them to get on with it - was not noticeably successful in the 1930s. The U.K. as part of the EU could join forces to support the Poles who object to the draconian laws that are being enacted. If we leave to EU our ability to influence these countries diminishes significantly.

I have no idea what historical reference you are making. What was part of the road map to WW2?

Considering you & others are lecturing about people having 'limited understanding of history', I'm surprised you are asking this.

I posted the quote:

"the new Europe of solidarity and co-operation among all its people will find rapidly increasing prosperity once national economic boundaries are removed"
(Arthur Seyss-Inquart)

Here's some more:

"No nation in Europe can achieve on its own the highest level of economic freedom which is compatible with all social requirements...The formation of very large economic areas follows a natural law of development....interstate agreements in Europe will control [economic forces generally]...There must be a readiness to subordinate one's own interests in certain cases to those of [the EC]."
(Walther Funk)

"[by creating] a large-scale economic unification of Europe, ...in fifty years’ time [people will] no longer think in terms of countries.”
(Joseph Goebbels)

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation

Good grief! I can barely begin to dissect that nonsense, but here goes.

Funk and Goebbels were hardly suggesting an economic union, their plan was much more of a takeover in relation to Western Europe. In terms of Eastern European countries, again not a democratic union, lebensraum was not a negotiated settlement.

There weren't planning on 'working together'. To conflate the EU conceived by great Europeans like Adenauer with Nazi plans for military domination is, once again, historically illiterate and just plain offensive.

Be careful quoting Goebbels. He wrote the alt-right playbook being played out now.

I suggest you read a few more - they will be remarkably modern sounding and prescient.

He had a very low opinion of the Will Of The People. In fact, no time at all for it, since it was so transparently and easily manipulated.

Marking place and ordering my mug of pub tea. [lightweight]

There weren't planning on 'working together'. To conflate the EU conceived by great Europeans like Adenauer with Nazi plans for military domination is, once again, historically illiterate and just plain offensive.

I wasn't conflating the EU with the Nazis' plan for military domination.

What I was doing was showing that the notion that a vote for brexit will have the 'unintended consequences of genocide & war' is just as ludicrous as 'the EU project now is the same as the Nazis' blueprint for an integrated Europe.

Be careful quoting Goebbels

What a ridiculous statement.

What's going to happen if someone quotes his words?

What do I need to 'be careful' of?

I am suggesting the possible disintegration of the EU may set us on the path towards conflict, history in Western Europe would support this view.

There are worrying indications that some countries in the EU are drifting rightwards and looking for authoritarian answers. The EU can stand as a bulwark against this. A country that adopts authoritarian laws will be in breach of EU law and sanctions can be used influence and encourage positive change.

At this difficult time in Europe I think we should stand with our democratic neighbours in opposing this move rightwards. Jumping ship and thinking " I'm alright jack" is cowardly and weak.

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation

What do I need to 'be careful' of?

In relation to quoting Goebbels? You need to ask?

In relation to quoting Goebbels? You need to ask?

Well yes.

What exactly do I 'have to be careful of'?

At this difficult time in Europe I think we should stand with our democratic neighbours in opposing this move rightwards. Jumping ship and thinking " I'm alright jack" is cowardly and weak.

We still can.
What part of 'still want to be a friend to Europe, and work in partnership' informs you otherwise?

Hmm the EU and it's policies is the cause of the growth of the far right movement more of a snow plough driving it forward than a bulwark against it.

As I have explained previously neither Poland of Hungary have ever been in the British sphere of influence. It would be very difficult for us to influence them in the way we might with Portugal with whom we have significantly closer ties.

Our hope to direct their politics lies within the EU not outside. Leaving now is abandoning our neighbours when we should be offering solidarity and standing firm.

As to Goebbels I would suggest you read some history. We need to understand the Nazis and the techniques they used but we must avoid lending any credence to any of their views, implicitly or explicitly.

User - What I said was that I didn't think the far right had gained any ground. I don't deny that there could well be right wing terrorists plotting grotesque acts. What I was alluding to was that I didn't feel that the general public are voting in a more right wing way as in UKIP's fall from grace or that right wing views are becoming more prevalent.
I also alluded to the fact that the police and security services have become very attuned to their role in counter terrorism and that the government have closed down particular extreme groups.

Speaking as an economic migrant to the UK I think that a lot of Brexiters forget that the EU migrants are here to work

If they stop coming then other migrants ( with probably a more noticeable suntan ) will have to be brought in to replace them

As there are not enough unemployed, able bodied, native born Brits to do the jobs that need doing.
And yes, the posted worker directive needs repealing so that wages in some low paid sectors can rise
but if wages rise, so will prices of the end product
putting the UK into a definite inflationary situation.

@InfiniteSheldon you think the EU alone is responsible for the rise of the right? They 'left behind' analysis has some merit but as in the U.K. that is more due to national government and world economics than the EU.

EU laws can be used to prevent further drifts to the right. The Commission is working to ensure the rule of law is maintained in Poland. By leaving we weaken the EU economically and thus diminish the influence it can have in Poland and Hungary.

As to Goebbels I would suggest you read some history. We need to understand the Nazis and the techniques they used but we must avoid lending any credence to any of their views, implicitly or explicitly.

And yet I didn't lend any credence to his views - neither implicitly nor explicitly. I merely posted a quote of his words, making no implication one way or another.

So, I ask again - what do I have to 'be careful' of?

I think that a lot of Brexiters forget that the EU migrants are here to work

Nope.

Why do you think that?