The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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No kicking off on this thread!!!

Bear has kindly set up another (non-pub) thread, so that leaves this one free for the Brexiteers!!!

Good speech by Theresa May today - onwards to Brexit 🍻🇬🇧

statistically your decision was primarily driven by immigration.

Im confused.

How on earth does wanting controls on immigration equate to "wanting 'those people' out of the country"?

Also, you still haven't explained why a vote to leave a trading bloc is in any way comparable to the actions of Hitler & the motivations of the Nazis.

*The law of unintended consequences.

You vote for Brexit assuming it would go one way. When the long term consequences are significantly more damaging than you though "oh I never meant that to happen".

It's still your fault even if you didn't intend it to happen.*

Are you seriously suggesting that genocide will be one of the long term consequences of leaving the EU?

.

I am suggesting that the EU has helped to keep peace in Europe for 70 years. This is a remarkable feat and needs to be admired. In the context of European history it is astounding.

The glee with which the possible fall of the EU is discussed by some is distressing and indicates profound lack of historical understanding.

I am suggesting that the EU has helped to keep peace in Europe for 70 years. This is a remarkable feat and needs to be admired. In the context of European history it is astounding.

But that's not what you said.

You posted this:

"The law of unintended consequences.
^
You vote for Brexit assuming it would go one way. When the long term consequences are significantly more damaging than you though "oh I never meant that to happen".

It's still your fault even if you didn't intend it to happen.^"

As a supporting explanation to this (by LondonMum):

"Here is the thing: most Nazi voters didn't vote for a genocide, they voted for work for the German people. The rest (and certainly 1945 :)) are "unintended consequences". WWII? Genocide? "Oh, we didn't think about that", "Oh, we didn't want that". Hence idiocracy."

So back to my question:

Are you seriously suggesting that genocide [and war] will be one of the long term consequences of leaving the EU?

It could be. I have no doubt that the German voters in the1920s/30s weren't voting for WWII.

One of my friends who runs a local FB information page just shared Caroline Lucas (Brighton & Hove) request for a second Referendum and asked for opinions. The 'Good grief no' outweighed the 'yes yes we'd win now' by about 100 to 1 I have tried to link it but she's taken it down already. That and TM's speech have made me feel very positive this weekend.

That's very interesting Infinite. I agree about TM's speech feeling fairly positive as she has out lined just what I was looking for.

As for the idea that us leaving the EU could start WW111, well I think our continued participation in ensuring the security of Europe and the wider world will have much more impact than us leaving a trading block.
The far right in the UK are not gaining any sort of foot hold here. The government have instigated quite a few laws in recent years to combat extremism of what ever shade and are looking at lots of ways of combating this at the moment especially on social media.

TM ain't no Hitler!

Anyone who doesn't see any historical parallels of the kind referenced above should buy a copy of Timothy Snyder's monograph, 'On Tyranny - 20 lessons from the 20th century' published in 2016 - and note the uncomfortable reference to brexit towards the end. Should be required reading in every sixth form.

Snyder is the author of Bloodlands - a history of Eastern Europe in the 30s and 40s that makes for uncomfortable reading.

Also agree about TM's speech - I'm feeling quite positive too.

I really don't get how the EU has kept peace in Europe did I imagine Yugoslavia/Bosnia/Serbia or are we just making deal up now and repeating it hoping no one notices

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation

Yes I do think Brexit could lead to social unrest, possible war and the atrocities that inevitably follow. I'm talking on on historical timescales not next Tuesday btw.

There are worrying indications in Poland and Hungary of a rise in the authoritarian right. The EU in its Byzantine way is moving to stop this. By leaving the EU we weaken it. As an independent nation with no deep historic ties to these countries we will have little opportunity to challenge these behaviours.

I have seen many Brexiters use this as reason to leave "the EU faces a crisis so we should leave". I think this view is no only abhorrent but historically illiterate.

When the right raises its head you stand firm with your allies you don't run and hide. Do I need to draw the parallels.....

Double,
Please be careful about far right extremist's in UK, I think it was head of Met Police's anti terrorist squad and MI5, who said in last fortnight there is a growing risk to far right terrorist attacks.
I believe they have stopped 4 in last 12 months
Ds is a police cadet, and their anti terrorist handbook, says as much about the far right as Muslim groups and the history of dealing with the historic Irish troubles.
Sadly there has always been a far right group in UK, small admittly
BNP, NF, Britain First spring to mind.
Not say it's to do with Brexit, just don't like to see people dismiss it

@InfiniteSheldon
By Europe I mean political 'Europe' as in the EU. Not geographical Europe.

This is the way the term is used on a Brexit thread. If we had to distinguish every time we used the term it would become ludicrous.

The issues with the Balkan states - geographical term - do however show how quickly 'civilised' nations can descend into chaos when unifying bodies disappear.

Theresa's list vis a vis any EU deal may be what some Brexiteers want, but it is a wish list. The EU won't may not agree that the UK can have everything it wants to cherrypick.

So, I suppose the question is if Brexiteers wanted what they will get.

Brexit:

leaving a trading block, not trying to create one.
Becoming an autonomous and independent partner country, not trying to force other countries into being our subordinates under the auspices of creating a trading block.

For example, there are more, direct parallels between this & war:
"the new Europe of solidarity and co-operation among all its people will find rapidly increasing prosperity once national economic boundaries are removed"

Than there are between leaving a trading bloc and war.

There are worrying indications in Poland and Hungary of a rise in the authoritarian right.

The UK's net contribution to the EU is roughly the same size as the net disbursement to Poland (much more significant proportion of Poland's much smaller economy obvs). The UK is also a significant host of migration from Poland.

If we are talking long term impacts then I wonder why there is so little questioning of whether the EU's level of intervention and impact on the Polish economy has fuelled the problem they now have very little clue how to address.

I wonder why there is so little questioning of whether the EU's level of intervention and impact on the Polish economy has fuelled the problem they now have very little clue how to address.

Ditto Ukraine.

LondonMum8
I’m still waiting for you to link where I said I wanted ‘these people out of the country’
Or are you now denying I said that?
Or are you just making it up as you go along to suit your agenda?
What is it?

One of the issues Brexiters continually raise is that the EU is so much more than a trading block. If it is just trade then your point is valid but it isn't.

I think is is good that it is more than just trade. To join the EU you need to have a genuine commitment to Human Rights - no capital punishment for example. When countries sit round a table to negotiate a range of issues they are less likely to fight.

*@InfiniteSheldon
By Europe I mean political 'Europe' as in the EU. Not geographical Europe.

This is the way the term is used on a Brexit thread. If we had to distinguish every time we used the term it would become ludicrous.*

Nonsense.

Posters use 'EU' for 'EU', and 'Europe' for 'Europe' - it is not ludicrous to distinguish, it is very straightforward- which is why most posters (excepting you apparently) manage perfectly well to make the distinction with minimum fuss.

And yes, I absolutely voted leave to control FOM into this country - why have you got such a problem with that?

I would be interested if someone could explain exactly how the EU's generally positive impact on the Polish economy has fuelled the rise of the right. Genuine question.

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation

So in this quote that you posted:

the new Europe of solidarity and co-operation among all its people will find rapidly increasing prosperity once national economic boundaries are removed

Political, economic or geographical?

One of the issues Brexiters continually raise is that the EU is so much more than a trading block. If it is just trade then your point is valid but it isn't.

Precisely.

It is the continual evolvement to 'much more than a trading bloc' which is of concern.

Which is why leaving now, before it becomes too far removed from being just a trading bloc is important.

If we don't leave now, we will become ever more subsumed into the 'so much more than a trading bloc' and this is what I fear.
This was part of the roadmap to WW2.