The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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No kicking off on this thread!!!

Bear has kindly set up another (non-pub) thread, so that leaves this one free for the Brexiteers!!!

Good speech by Theresa May today - onwards to Brexit 🍻🇬🇧

And why would I do that?

Well you’re the one arguing that the EU has “the customs union” and that’s completely different to a bespoke customs arrangement (like maybe the one between the EU and Turkey). Apparently you Googled it?

Finally
I find it best if you read the "opposition's websites"
So the EU's or one's linked to it and EEA, they tell you the facts written by the owners of the agreements.
So no media hype, government spin/hype or pie in sky opinions
The EU offer's

1. Single market access to members
2. EEA membership to Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein
3. BI lateral access to Switzerland, TM already ruled it out 4)Custom union membership to San Marino, Andorra and Vatican City
4. Custom Union to Turkey *please 4 & 5 above are what we are walking away from. Or a FTA agreement like CFTA or South Korea, both dismissed by TM All searches for EU custom union/agreements give above. So why do you all believe we will be treated differently, when EU constantly tells you, we are only able to offer off the shelf options.

I am disturbed that constant lying,

I am not a liar.

Well you’re the one arguing that the EU has “the customs union” and that’s completely different to a bespoke customs arrangement (like maybe the one between the EU and Turkey). Apparently you Googled it?

Well yes, but that doesn't explain why I should go to great lengths to explain the nuances of other customs arrangement to others.

The information is freely available to all, and can be found via a google search.

Agnes
According to Lawyers for Britain
Turkey's custom union is pretty much as the EU member's one
They dismiss as a practical solution to Britain's post EU future
By the way I have no clue who Lawyers for Britain are, they just had a easy to read fact page on EU customs Union

Just google them
They are a pro leaver group
Not fans of any custom union/agreement with EU
They may want to talk to Theresa May sharpish

@FaithHopeCharityDesperation

I am not a liar

Prove it then. Produce the evidence. Habeas corpus - the basic of English law. Magna Carte.

Produce the evidence or shut up.

*I am not a liar

Prove it then. Produce the evidence. Habeas corpus - the basic of English law. Magna Carte.

Produce the evidence or shut up.*

KK then.

Shut up?
Get tae.
HTH.

User - Turkey's participation in the customs union is quite different to that of any EU country. It is only for certain sectors of their trade and does not include things like agriculture. That is one of the reasons we don't want to be a 3rd country attached to the customs union. Also it means that you can only do trade deals in the sectors you are not tied to the EU with with other 3rd countries so very restricting.
We want to be able to have a FRA with the EU as well as other countries and trading groups and not be restricted by EU as to what we trade freely with others.

user just home and wanted to thank you for your reply. I wish your sons well in their aims, but sadly have to agree with you that their generation (I have children that age too) will be more disadvantaged than ours - that's both where you live and here in the leafy home counties.

I commend your efforts to research this contentious topic. It is probably true that an EFTA/EEA option for the UK would be reluctantly 'accepted' by many of those who would prefer to remain, but it would be acceptance as someone posted above with the plaintive cry of "but at what cost economically, loss of political influence in the EU and realistically how the UK is viewed worldwide, general upset in divided communities/families and what is the point when would could have all that EFTA EEA covers and remained".

I know you think we voted to leave so there must be some 'leaving' to acknowledge that, but did you never change your mind about something? It would be a big ask but sometimes we have to look at the facts not the wishes and take difficult decisions.

User - Yes, she ruled out a Canada/South Korea ‘off the shelf’ agreement and she was right to do so. EEA for me personally is not an option and I don’t think TM sees it as an option because that would mean us adhering to the four pillars which completely goes against a vote to Leave and is Brexit in name only which is the worst of all worlds. WTO also been ruled out as an option, so we need to move on and I think that will involve ‘a’ U.K. customs agreement the content of which will need to be hashed out and compromises made on both sides.

time but you are left with tricky issue of the border on the island of Ireland. How is that resolved without the 'single market' in play with all customs regs aligned? Having the means (eventually perhaps) to monitor/oversee customs tariff and non-tariff barriers does not deal with the actuality of having brought that border 'in to play' in contradiction to our obligations under the international treaty for peace on the island of Ireland, signed in Belfast and known as the Good Friday Agreement.

Habeas corpus - the right to a fair trial and not to be baselessly accused and detained.

Time4,
They the only options on the table, unless you believe the EU commission and 27 of our neighbours are bear face lying to us all.
Please all remember as of 29 March 2019, in all reality we are worse of then EFTA/EEA members, Canada, South Korea and Mexico and another other country with Third Party agreement.
We are just another country queening for a FTA at their door, not their choice ours. So once again why do we get a better deal than Canada, Norway, Mexico, South Korea or Japan.
None of above ever have had full membership, which rightly gives full benefits, so why when we chose to give them away, do we expect to get a better deal than any other 3rd party country.
We wouldn't do it too any one else, so why do we expect it back.
That's now cherry picking, (or having a smaller cake and eat it) surely

compromises made on both sides.

Unfortunately, we are the weaker party. EU negotiators are more experienced and more skilled. They have a idea what they want, the U.K. is floundering.

In these circumstances politicians usually kick the issue into the long grass. An inquiry is called. Investigations take place, the issue is pushed away until everyone forgets or a solution is found.

There is time pressure and the U.K. is constantly backing away. The compromises will mainly be from the U.K., with some token EU compromises.

I expect 'transition' to be used as an excuse to give extra time in the hope that the U.K. will change its mind.

@howabout

Habeas corpus - literally " produce the person" meaning produce the evidence.

You must have evidence.

"We want to be able to have a FRA with the EU as well as other countries and trading groups and not be restricted by EU as to what we trade freely with others."

We know what we want, but the EU has continuously said that what we want isn't on offer. We have spent the past 18 months gradually defining what we want (although the process has been akin to tooth extraction), but if it hasn't been on offer from the start, it seems fatuous to keep on doing so. It all seems as circular as some of the wrangling on here.

"Literal" is a meaningless term in legalise.

Interesting how User147 is laying out the options more clearly than anybody
because he's looked them up
and sadly he's also realised how deeply damaging to the UK economy most of them are going to be.

I do not involve myself with the petty insults I get enough of it at work dealing with politicians
but its amusing to me that the ones hurling the most insults intersperse them with the least facts and information

JWM - yes I am fully aware of GFA and don’t know the answer to that myself but this is an interesting article:

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.cityam.com/281460/irish-border-scuffle-could-turned-uks-advantage-brexit/amp

JWIM,
I changed my mind on this, I voted remain, but realised we have too leave. So yes we can change our minds.
Thanks to you, AgnesSkinner for links to EFTA and Talkin for making me analysis things, that I came to EFTA, after Theresa May's speech.
I think I am unique on here, that I have changed my mind.
It just gives you a chance to see both sides, really, and makes you a turncoat and confused at times.
I guess unlike A) leavers (true 40 year ones) I want to leave in a way that keeps as much as we have now and unlike B) remainers I am not desperately wanting to stay in.
SO selfishly EFTA/EEA works for me, and I hope it would work best for UK, Ireland and EU.
Though it makes it quite lonely here on this thread, which is why I still feel like running away. but am I probably closer to the middle 50% of Britain's populations view on Brexit, so I stay and add the odd non bias info I can find. I think it must be like been a Lib Dem, Green, Independent MP feels though, lone voice in wilderness.

So why do you all believe we will be treated differently

Because we’re the 5th biggest economy in the world, therefore it’s in the EU’s interest to keep us happy.
Basic stuff people.

user1471450935 your posts are really starting to get on my wick.
Not sure why.

surferjet
Because we’re the 5th biggest economy in the world
Um no
dropped to 6th a while ago
and the EU does not give the USA or China Free trade deals, why would it give the UK one ?
therefore it’s in the EU’s interest to keep us happy.
Un mo
Its in the EU's interests to keep their paying members happy
That is why they protect their members against greedy jumped up outsiders who want to cherry pick deals

It’s defo in their interest to keep us happy,
we’re the UK.
We’re not some bankrupt Mediterranean country who only export olives.
We’re special.