The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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No kicking off on this thread!!!

Bear has kindly set up another (non-pub) thread, so that leaves this one free for the Brexiteers!!!

Good speech by Theresa May today - onwards to Brexit 🍻🇬🇧

How are any outstanding Brexit supporters feeling about the Trade Deal they are going to get from Trump? Haha

surfer, it's not 'going for throat' to pull people up on the fact they're lying.

You might be happy to let it go, I'm not.

I actually agree about taking a break from these thread, it's utterly pointless discussing things with people who either

• literally don't give a shit what happens as long as we get to say we've left or
• defend the points with lies and untruths thus making discussion impossible

Bear, I think your problem with not finding stuff via internet searches may be because of the words you are using.

You can start with a general, wide search with a question but the first few pages will be cluttered with recent newspaper articles quite often.

Try using key words to get into the weeds more - for example 'the customs union EU' 'customs union brexit' etc.
Then (for eg) 'what is a customs arrangement Brexit EU'

If you are looking at articles, they more often than not have links to the specific details of something that they are paraphrasing, or generally reporting on - I follow them, and then links or references from there to get into the details or different interpretations of things.

Wrt to a customs 'arrangement' - as a PP said, it is semantics - what that means is a Free Trade & Customs Agreement - it is different to the customs union, because it is not 'the' customs union - it will be different & new.

Now, I'd really appreciate it if you stopped calling me a liar - I am not.

And I may be a twat, but if you want someone to do shit for you like posting links etc, then it's probs for the best to not be so obnoxious towards them.

Wrt to a customs 'arrangement' - as a PP said, it is semantics - what that means is a Free Trade & Customs Agreement - it is different to the customs union, because it is not 'the' customs union - it will be different & new.

TM explicitly ruled out 'the' or 'a' customs union just a few weeks ago.

The words 'a' and 'the' were expressly used.

So why is 'a customs agreement' now different?

This is exactly my point about a Leavers not even noticing they are having their expectations lowered without even noticing.

Let's all gang up on Bear and call her a bully, eh?

But Bear you just wont let things go.
There are people on this thread I really don’t like, so on the whole I ignore them.
I’m not saying you don’t like Faith, I think you probably do like her, but you let frustration get the better of you.
I can’t post on here all day everyday, it would drive me mad, so I disappear for a few days every now & then. Saves my sanity ( such as it is )

The thing is Faith you tell us about all the research you've done. You educate us on your research methods. You explain what you believe to be true.

But you fail to provide any evidence. If you have done all the research surely your evidence is to hand. You can just direct us to. Simples. You win, we lose. The fact that you don't proves time and again you have no evidence.

When you do provide evidence is does not contain the information you claim it does.

Or you simply ignore proven points ie Thatcher is the architect of closer European integration, she signed the SEA. You simply repeat you do not believe it to be true.

Bear is frustrated beyond measure, as are others, because you refuse to conform to the basic rules of argument, debate, discussion and chat. Make a point, provide evidence then explain it.

The other problem with google searches is that the algorithms are tailored based on your previous search history. So for example if I search anything I tend to get articles with a Scottish / technical article perspective. To counter this I often have to use additional descriptors.

I assume Remain and Leave supporters have very different search biases and so would need to use different approaches to counter them.

On "the" vs "a" the Marr programme this morning had lots of contributions. However otoh you would take everything Simon Coveney / Peter Mandelson said at face value or otoh you would believe TM as backed up by IDS. "FACTs" and politics tend to be pretty much mutually exclusive.

@howabout

The nature of 'fact' can seem illusory these days.

However, the least you can do is say " I think this because of this piece of evidence".

Politicians can and do point you towards research and you can go and check it out yourself. To say " this is true - google it" is ludicrous. As you say all searches are different and if you can provide evidence to widen and educate the discussion that is always a good thing.

You can debate the validity of the evidence, but at least provide some evidence!

Trade Deals with Trump
Do not hold your breath folks.
He does not even understand that VW cars are built in the US by American workers
He does not want trade deals, he wants a trade war.
He wants to export everything and import nothing.

Any part of Brexit that relies on the USA should be ignored.

Ok faith and surfer.
But Faith EFTA isn't enough, they admit been in the EEA, well except Switzerland, gives them the edge
So I am sorry you and all leavers dismissed the EEA out of hand.
I just realised you're more happy to attack each other for being rude/nasty then actually engaging in a talk, apart from Talkin.
So nice speaking to you, the only time any replies is to say I am rude or nasty.
Well unlike you lot I see it from both sides and personally you both get nothing you want.
Because it all built on one thing LEAVE
No reason backing it, even the government can't find a principled stance.
So we are getting LEAVE with as close to remaining as we dare to sell to Brexitters
So the EU will be laughing in to their coffee and croissants, this morning, they now know they are fighting a battle with a combatant with one hand tied behind it's back. We all lose.
Also don't worry I accept I am not wanted here by either side because I don't fit into the:
A) Leave is going to be great whatever happens, as long as leave stance, and B) only by remaining is Britain going to succeed stance either
I only glad the person I first posted for 2/3 threads was okay and has never return to read these threads, it would hurt them even more. Life is never Black and white, it multiple shades of grey, we all have to compromise, even in Brexitting.
At some point the UK will finally grow up.
But I am not holding my breathe.
I think I will join 75% of mumsnetter's and leave you all to it.

The thing is Faith you tell us about all the research you've done. You educate us on your research methods.

I could see that Bear is frustrated because she can't find stuff easily, so gave her a couple of pointers - meant in the nicest possible way, not in an attempt to 'educate'.

These are not my 'research methods' - they're 'how to do an online search' pointers.

So I am sorry you and all leavers dismissed the EEA out of hand.

Not out of hand, no.

You may have only started looking into everything in the last few weeks, but many have been looking at them & trying to understand the implications of each since the Ref, definitely, and some from before the Ref.

I could see that Bear is frustrated because she can't find stuff easily, so gave her a couple of pointers

I'm not frustrated because I can't find stuff easily.

I'm frustrated because I have never 'met' anyone as shameless as you before.

I literally cannot comprehend how you can continue to insist people 'google it' or 'read it' to support you comments when you know it's completely pointless because the points you are making are simply untrue.

I suspect the point Bear is making is that “a customs agreement” is the same as “a customs union”. The EU doesn’t have a single customs union, there is the CU that covers the EU member states (and some non EU territories) and then 4 separate CUs that cover 4 different countries with different goods covered in each of the agreements.

When May previously said “no custons union” and has now switched to talking of “a customs agreement” she is backtracking and just fudging the language.

Probably my final Brexit Arms post
I know you think my last few posts became rude.
But I have been call numerous things from both sides now, that must be unique on here,
So the reason I may have stepped over the line is I am passionate about my local area which I live in.
I have two teenage boys who look like they will be the 1st generation who will grow up to worse than us, who both come ex council estate (we taking deprived here too), so not but to beat to be fair. I will therefore fight with every bone I left to stop that.
I am passionate that IMHO EFTA and EEA is the only way forward.
I now know most don't agree, so I will butt out and leave you all to it. Enjoy your weekend and it was nice speaking to people all over Britain
Finally I so glad you all know that your stance is correct, because I am so confused, leaving the UK was the UK saviour, but Mrs May speech on Friday blew that out the window for me
I blame TalkinPeace for making me analysis everything, if I stayed my uneducated 5 year , 21 year girl persona, I too would be dancing a gig around the Maypole.
Actually, I am truly thankful to TalkinPeace for helping me with that and answering my daft questions, I will miss that part, the double sided attacks, I don't have either the education or humour to answer.
So bye, because unlike all of you I am too insecure in mine own abilities and believes to keep going for 20 odd Brexit Arms.
I hope the landlady finally calls time on them, because you are never going to stop kicking off, and she will soon lose her licence.

Exactly agnes

Even more so because TM explicitly ruled out even 'a' customs union just a few weeks ago.

The exact words used

So it is not our policy to stay in the customs union. It is not our policy to stay in a customs union

Faith the salient point being - if you are so good at research that you can give pointers to others - prove it.

Demonstrate that skill by providing links so us mere mortals can be enlightened.

But I have been call numerous things from both sides now,

Bollocks.

Nobody (Apart from Bear & talkinpeace) have called you anything.

User

It would be sad if you were to stop posting. You have made some interesting points and given insight into your changing views, through which you have now ended up supporting the idea of EFTA/EEA (leaving aside whether this would really equate to "leaving", so why bother?).

With regard to the ongoing rather circular spat about evidence and who's responsible for looking for it, if I read an article which I've found on Google and think it would back up something I wish to say or generally just help the discussion, I just copy and paste the link as a common courtesy to save others the time I took in finding it. At least then everyone is singing from the same hymn-sheet and we can concentrate on critiquing the article, rather than each other.

Faith the salient point being - if you are so good at research that you can give pointers to others - prove it.

I do not need to 'prove' my abilities to research to anonymous people on an Internet forum.

That is the salient point.

abi - no one is lying! Why are you trying to stir things up, your previous post with regard to Faith about liar liar pants on fire was ignored so I suggest that either you have something constructive to say or desist.

To be fair, surfer hasn't lied, infact she's been brutally honest about the lack of thought behind her choices.

Most Leavers are just dumbing down their expectations wrt Brexit, as TM offers them scraps which they lap up, pretending it was all they every expected.

I noticed mummmy hasn't even bothered coming back now WTO is off the table.