The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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This may be the last Brexit Arms thread that I will host.

It was intended to be a non-partisan and relatively light hearted thread for posters on both sides of the divide, but unfortunately this seems to have proved impossible so far.

It is not supposed to be a place for the disgruntled Remainer to use as an outlet to abuse and kick out at their perceived enemy.

I will give it one last go in the hope that things will change.

So.... onwards to Brexit....

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Brexit vote happened because Cameron didn't have the courage to face down these idiots in his party.

The NI border one.
😂

The beaded curtain?!

Top idea!

See - I knew it could be easily sorted 😂😂

😂😂

If only you weren’t actually serious surfer

And faith

Yet another u-turn

TM is not exactly living up to Margaret Thatcher’s famous words is she?

Next U-turn will be on SM/CU

You can even hear it in the language the main stream Tories are using now.

No hard border is unequivocally committed to, CU/SM is not enforced in anything like the same language.

That may be your memory, but it may be worth brushing up on the reality.

Nope. That's what happened.

Funny, so many Brexiteers want to forget that not only did Mrs Thatcher campaign to keep Britain in the EEC. She played a very big part in how it looks today. The single market was a UK initiative and opposed by France/Germany. It took a lot of talk to make it work.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#History

So the single market we (apparently) so desperately want out of (like the ECHR) is a British idea. Even more ironically, because it worked the EU is rather attached to it.

Unless you have a different cite, somewhere ?

Hi there user1471450935
I just got in from work.
I am glad that my post last night made sense and helped clarify your thought process on China and the USA.

Re the EU :
The EU would much rather that there was no need for a trade agreement with the UK.
They would much rather that the UK stayed in the EU or at the very least the Single Market / Customs Union
because the UK is a major player in the EU, particularly in Financial services
and gives the EU more heft when it is trying to keep Mr Trump and Mr Xi under their rocks.

They are not trying to "bully" the UK.

They are just trying to get it to set out a negotiation position that is not internally contradictory and starts from 2018 rather than the days of Empire.

The UK already does half of its trade with countries outside the EU.
The value of that will not change much after Brexit - because the UK will still have the same population and industrial base.

What will change after a hard Brexit is the value of trade with the EU.
It will drop significantly - due to rising costs driven by tariffs and logistics.
Therefore the UK will be poorer even as the percentage of non EU trade rises.

That is not something I would wish on my Children.

Nope. That's what happened.

Nope. It's not.

Funny, so many Remainers want to forget that Mrs Thatcher did not want to sign up to the Maastricht Treaty and campaigned for us not to - including calling for a referendum on it.

And then 'forget' how Tony Blair gave up a chunk of the rebate in exchange for vague assurances which didn't materialise (didn't materialise because he never bothered to ensure they did).

And 'forget' how Tony Blair horrendously mismanaged the accession of the Eastern European countries wrt immigration.

And 'forget' how Blair/Brown promised a Ref on the EU Constitution & then utilised semantics to renege on it as the EU Constitution in all but name (Lisbon Treaty) was quietly signed off by Gordon Brown.

And then David Cameron was too wet to properly negotiate changes.

So yeah - much more to it than just Cameron caving to a few noisy eurosceptics.

Thatcher signed the Single European Act.

The clue is in the name.........

Thatcher signed the Single European Act.

Yes.

She also then went on to vehemently oppose the direction that the EU then decided to take.

The clue is in 'did not want to sign up to the Maastricht Treaty and campaigned for us not to - including calling for a referendum on it'.

The Single European Act confirmed and widened the use of QMV.

I despise Thatcher but her contribution to the SEA makes her one one the architects of the modern EU.

She may have changed her mind later - but her actions, the bills she signed and treaties she negotiated are her actual legacy.

Actions speak louder than words.

Actions speak louder than words.
And THAT is the bit that Liam Fox and David Davis still do not get

The damaging treaties and actions came after Thatcher: Major, Blair & Brown.

Faithhope
But the core point is that the negotiating has to start from where we ARE not where you might wish us to be ....

Talkin - You do have an odd way of looking at things - who on earth starts a negotiation from where they are now! You set out where you would like to be then ask for even more in order to end up with what you want!
Also your idea of trade with the rest of the world after Brexit is more than a bit skewed. 54% of our export trade at the moment is done outside the EU. When we have free trade deals with any country they will buy more from us and we may find it more economic to buy from them rather than the EU. Also we intend to get a free trade deal with the EU so no tariffs. Why would there be a discernible difference in the cost of logistics? We are not physically moving the UK away from mainland Europe!

I find it baffling too Double.

We know where we'd like to be & the future vision - we need to negotiate a path to getting there though.
It is in mutual interests for us & the EU to do a good deal.

The border issue currently ongoing is also proof that future trade deal should have been discussed in parallel with divorce arrangements - the EU definitely dropped a bollock in their determination to be seen as 'tough'.

doubletrouble
When we have free trade deals with any country they will buy more from us and we may find it more economic to buy from them rather than the EU
What will we be able to sell more of to China ?
What will we be able to sell more of to the USA?
What will THEY want to sell more of to us?

Why would there be a discernible difference in the cost of logistics? We are not physically moving the UK away from mainland Europe!
Customs clearance adds time and cost significantlt.
If you cannot understand that, you really need to go to a port and look around you more.

The Single European Act was the first major treaty after the Treaty of Rome.

It embedded QMV and as Brittanica says:

Single European Act (SEA), agreement enacted by the European Economic Community (EEC; precursor to the European Community and, later, the European Union) that committed its member countries to a timetable for their economic merger and the establishment of a single European currency and common foreign and domestic policies

This act laid the ground rules for ALL that followed. Thatcher negotiated it personally and signed it.

Unequivocally this was the point where the EU's wider aims could have been stopped. You might not want it to be true but it is generally agreed the SEA was where deeper European integration started.

The SEA is Thatcher's legacy. Blame her if you want to apportion blame.

I blame the successive governments from Major onwards for being wet wrt the EU project.

I'm pleased we're leaving.

Hi talkin,
Only just got power back.
Thank you for your great reply.
Lovely you took it as serious question, as it was.
Just took a gas heater to MIL as she has no power in -7 weather.
Will catch later.
See John Major calling for possible 2nd referendum
what do people think of that?
My answer is No Thanks

But! But!
John Major promised there would be no second referendum in the run up to the last one....