The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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This may be the last Brexit Arms thread that I will host.

It was intended to be a non-partisan and relatively light hearted thread for posters on both sides of the divide, but unfortunately this seems to have proved impossible so far.

It is not supposed to be a place for the disgruntled Remainer to use as an outlet to abuse and kick out at their perceived enemy.

I will give it one last go in the hope that things will change.

So.... onwards to Brexit....

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Because some of what they wrote, isn't what was agreed.

Nope - it’s the legal setting out of the discussions to date. Either the UK comes up with an acceptable solution which negates the need for a border or NI stays in the CU/SM.

faith what is tedious is your continual twisting of posts to suit your cause.

Bear what is tedious is your continual twisting of posts to suit your cause.

(Fixed that for you!)

faith, that wasn’t funny the first time you posted it, even less so the second time

I take it you’re not going to share with us why the cake and eat it plan is perfectly reasonable and possible in practice?

"or NI stays in the CU/SM.

In which case we all do."

Which is how I understood the agreement reached between the UK and the EU enabling negotiations to progress. If no solution ultimately agreed, "regulatory alignment" will apply between the EU and NI. Which in the absence of a hard border between NI and the rUK, would mean regulatory alignment also pllying to the rUK.

I presume this is what the EU is now seeking to make "Davis-proof" by engrossing it in legal form.

Well our dream team is basically getting steamrolled as totally expected, even Boris The Bullshitter is soon going to run of empty rhetoric to cover the incompetence.

@user1471450935

accepted ... sorry for being snippy ...

“48 hours and JC does another like the student fees........ We might not do that...”

Clarifying what was said as opposed to what the media reported, you mean?

I don’t see how you can object to that without complaining about the statement about the NHS made on a certain red bus in 2016 - or the 2017 election promise of 30 hours per week of free childcare that actually wasn’t.

DG
Thank you.
Sorry if I sounded rude. I am just as passionate about the Uk doing well, as anyone else.
I think everyone on here wants the Uk to prosper, just we have different views how it can be best achieved.
Quite concerned that EU thinks it would be acceptable to split up a sovereign nation, by putting an artifilial border in North Sea.
Have they learnt nothing from the aftremath of Africian and Yugoslivia independance and the following cival wars.
I thought they wanted borderless Ireland, but they happily enforce one on the Uk, one voted for
Some bloody friends there

"Some bloody friends there"

Seriously? Now they are supposed to be our friends? Are we theirs? Is Farage, BoJo, mummy, faith? Brexit turned us on each other - everyone else will benefit.

The EU doesn't think it is acceptable to split up a sovereign nation. But we decided to screw it up by voting Leave and then acting all hurt when the ROI/UK border was identified as an issue.
I and others banged on about this in the run up to the vote. If you went on MN you would have seen it.
Project Fear, apparently.
You've made your bed, you are going to have to lie in it.

"by voting Leave and then acting all hurt when the ROI/UK border was identified as an issue."

If memory serves well, it was identified well before the Breferendum.

It was identified before the referendum. It's all over old pre-referendum threads. I know because I posted it loads of times and plenty other Remainers agreed.
But we were shouted down as part of Project Fear.
This is totally on Leave voters. It's not the EU's fault.

user1471450935

I think everyone on here wants the Uk to prosper, just we have different views how it can be best achieved.

I'd be happy to agree to that ... until

Quite concerned that EU thinks it would be acceptable to split up a sovereign nation, by putting an artifilial border in North Sea.

Which suggests you've missed something. It's not the EU doing anything other than making sense of what the UK has told them.

If you want to turn todays events into a EU vs. UK spat, then you are ignoring the Good Friday Agreement.

Again.

It's the GFA which is dictating the limitations on Brexit. The GFA that the UK and Ireland signed up to - without coercion - many years ago.

You may not like it. I am sure a lot of Brexiters don't. But it's existence cannot be discarded lightly....

In a nod to other light thinkers I've seen lately, the UK is more than free to discard the GFA, and order bonfires in Lewes specifically for the burning of it. (That's a Petition I'd like to see a sincere Brexiteer start, although I'm wagering a that it doesn't happen. Fuck it, it gets to 100,000 I'll make it . PM me for your winnings)

However, there is a special place reserved on the world stage for countries that don't take their international obligations seriously. And it's a place that only North Korea might go to do business with the UK.

Just to restore some facts to how seriously the UK takes it's international obligations (and to really wind up Brexiteers with a long memory) you need to bear in mind that for all Mrs Thatchers power and fury, the UK had to allow the person who murdered WPC Yvonne Fletcher walk out of the UK. With a police escort to protect them. Why ? Because for all it's "sovereignty" the UK is signed up to the 1961 Vienna Convention. (It's also the reason the UK hasn't attempted to enter the Ecuadorian embassy).

In fact, I suspect if the UK were to deliberately and egregiously contraven the GFA, some countries might consider breaking off diplomatic relations anyway. That's how serious it is.

If all this focus on the GFA is pissing Brexiteers off, then tough. Once again, it was bought up as a sticking point before you voted.

The UK is, of course free to renegotiate the GFA. I'm sure the US would gladly act (again) as broker (the EU probably less so). However if the UKs top negotiating team is Davies, Fox and Johnson, I can't see that getting very far.

Bear in mind the GFA is also "the will of the people" - considerably more so than Brexit.

I wonder what Senator Mitchell makes of all this ?

The border issue was identified clearly before the ref, we were told that it could be worked out, if it can be worked out any way other than NI effectively staying with the same rules and regulations as the rest of Europe now is the time for the Brexiteers to identify it. I would like to assume enough time has passed for those in favour of this plan to have identified a way through this and also issues with Gibraltar which haven't had much air time.
For a unionist party the conservatives are doing a shocking job of actually keeping the country together. NI didn't vote to leave so keeping them alongside the EU isn't unreasonable but Scotland didn't vote to leave either and it will go down like a pile of cold sick if NI has all of the advantages of the SM leaving Scotland with a border. I don't see this doing anything other than driving independence.

Just to really annoy people who don't "do knowledge" (an insult a friend heard recently, when someone asked how come she "knew stuff") the GFA was flagged as an issue waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Brexit.

When Dinky Dave pig-fucker-it's-true-if-we-say-so Cameron was looking for another way to pay the Tory Dane-Geld, by having a "British Bill Of Rights" which eliminated the ECHR.

Quite a few legal and constitutional experts pointed out (tinfoil hat time here) that the UK could not simply pull out of the ECHR, since all EU law is subservient to it (so the UK could not pull out and remain an EU member). The same experts also pointed out that the GFA was stacked on the ECHR as the UK was member of the EU . Therefore to achieve what Cameron was promising would take renegotiating the GFA and leaving the EU.

This must have been 2010 ish - when I last read print newspapers.

Off course the whole promise was kicked into the long grass, so that the real work of shitting on the less able and more vulnerable could start in earnest. But - here it is again. Returning to haunt the Tories.

The border issue was identified clearly before the ref, we were told that it could be worked out

We've been told a lot of things. Even before the referendum, there were many experts (maybe we should have listened after all, Mr. Gove ?) who pointed out you can't square the circle. You really can't. It's like a Muslim Christian ... two diametrically opposed views of the world that simply cannot exist in a single frame of reference. And - despite Brexiteers attempts to live in an alternate reality - we only have one planet.

user why do you think the potential breaking up of a sovereign nation is the EU’s fault?

Which part of ‘we are choosing to leave’ makes this the EU’s fault?

Why do you and fellow Leavers think we can keep everything as we want even outside SM/CU?

Why should we be allowed frictionless trade outside the SM/CU?

Seems John Major is a bit smarter than the average Brexiteer ...

Seems John Major is a bit smarter than the average Brexiteer ...

😂😂

KK then.

John Major is one of the root causes of Brexit - ably assisted by Tony Blair, Gordon Brown & David Cameron.

Without them, Brexit probably wouldn't have happened.

FAith - do you follow the daily mash on FB?

John Major is one of the root causes of Brexit - ably assisted by Tony Blair, Gordon Brown & David Cameron.

At least he isn't making moronic statements about the EU "forcing" anything.

My memory of the Major years, as I call them, is that he was following Mrs Thatchers steer on a European single market, which the less cuddly tories had decided would be bad for them and their paymasters.

Unlike Theresa May, he put his money where his mouth was, stood down as leader, and said put up, or shut up. And despite being unable to put up, the "bastards" reneged and didn't shut up either.

I personally don't think Blair ever made good on his promise to be "at the heart of Europe".

Without them, Brexit probably wouldn't have happened.

Not really sure what you mean ? Without them we wouldn't be in the EU now ? Or it's because of them people have voted for Brexit. Rather than anything to do with the EU ?

My memory of the Major years, as I call them, is that he was following Mrs Thatchers steer on a European single market, which the less cuddly tories had decided would be bad for them and their paymasters.

That may be your memory, but it may be worth brushing up on the reality.

Without them, Brexit probably wouldn't have happened.*

Not really sure what you mean ? Without them we wouldn't be in the EU now ? Or it's because of them people have voted for Brexit. Rather than anything to do with the EU ?*

I meant that I doubt leaving the EU would have ever come up as a mainstream sentiment.
It's as a direct result of their actions that remaining a member became untenable.

FAith - do you follow the daily mash on FB?

No - just off to have a look though...