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It may yet not happen, more importantly it should not happen, and everybody who agrees with this should work together on reverting the process. It's not like the average person can normally do THAT much either way (apart from say starting to grow their own food), however, the next elections and/or referendum will come eventually...

London Mum your so right, about the next Election, and the fact people will by then see what Brexit looks like, but IF the EU do punish the UK don't you worry it will simply mean if one side compains to take us back in it could result in a landslide for the other side?

Well sadly when Brexit goes belly up the leavers narrative will be that it was the fault of the Eu for “punishing us”. The only 2 things I can guarantee post 2019;

1. Conspiracy theories from brexiteers
2. Brexiteers still complaining about domestic problems - NHS etc

Same old, same old.

but when he knows that isn't the way the PM and others are making speeches about the way things will happen and his speeches are the oppersite to the official comments, enough that the PM has BANNED him doing this, can't you see what I mean?

Jesus wept. You think our PM has the power or the right to BAN people from saying things things? Luckily, we have not yet turned our country into Turkey or North Korea. People are still allowed to speak out here, despite the risk of them being castigated for it by the likes of the Daily Mail and other MSM. So, no. I can't 'see what you mean.'

Britain needs a clear exit plan

Which is exactly what every remainer on here has been saying over and over again . If we ask what it is , we get told we don't need to know , businesses don't need to know either , all we need to do is get behind the government and be positive .
I am not going to be positive about leaving , I do not see the opportunities for doing so or how these will increase the standard of living for all of the people of the UK , including those areas that have felt largely forgotten and left behind . I do not trust the government to address those issues whether we are in or out of the EU , they simply do not care .
As for the cabinet infighting , I think having a couple of people talking about the actual facts as opposed to spouting nonsensical rhetoric is no bad thing . Leaving is going to be complicated and the more honest individuals who stand up and explain why and what the consequences are , the better . That way no one can blame the other 27 countries for what occurs in the future , although I am sure plenty will regardless .

but IF the EU do punish the UK

it"s like talking to a dim 8 y.o... WE ARE BRINGING THIS UPON OURSELVES!

If you jump off a cliff to certain death don't be ridiculous and claim that the gravity is punishing you. It was your decision to jump that caused the fall and the death.

And yet again....

The skilled, trained EU negotiators are getting the best deal for their members as they should. They would be negligent to do otherwise. These skilled, trained negotiators used to work for us until we rejected them.

They are doing their job well. Yes that's right the EU is really good at something, trade negotiations.

We are attempting to leave them. They are doing their job. It is not about punishment.

It's astounding that Leavers are now frequently not even arguing against the accuracy of the comments of realists like Hammond; they just want them to shut up so they can ignore them.

When did the narrative change from 'it'll be the easiest deal in history' to 'it's going to be rough for several years'?

I see *surfer has started her Leavers Lagoon cult thread

I'm eagerly awaiting the influx of people who see solutions not problems

Honourable but we need a coherent way forward, not another 6 months of infight.

User we have had 18 months of cabinet infighting, with backbenchers like Jenkin, Redwood, IDS, Bone and Rees-Mogg sniping whenever they feel their vision of a hard Brexit is being threatened. It’s appalling, these numpties are putting themselves and their party before the national interest, and we will end up with harm being done to the country because their vision is so economically damaging.

I am ashamed of the politicians in this country. And all this infighting to protect their hard Brexit vision is going on while the clock is ticking. I find it both incredible and incomprehensible that the government had completely failed to come up with any sort of coherent agreed plan before Article 50 was triggered. The level of incompetence is breathtaking.

Agnes Bear and co,
Radical thought here,
I agree about the politicians, most have been uttey useless.
But if both extremes had shut up, accepted the vote and got one with it. I honestly think we could have ended up much closer to your BINO.
But no the likes of Anna Soudby, Ken Clark and many lords, even after the high court case, continued to try and undermine it.
So the hard brexitters fight back.
We end up here.
For all our sakes stop the infighting, remove both extremes from the equation and we could find a mutally, low damage solution for both sides.
But whilst people in politics and on here keep say it needs stopping, they give the hard brexitters ammo and they run the show.
Say nowt, they have nothing to campaign against and the moderates get their chance
Thats only my humble opinion though

@user1471450935

Yeah bastard politicians standing up for what they believe in. They could be opportunistic but no they insist on doing what they believe is the right thing for the country. Defying the part whip to put forward a position that will make them unpopular in their own party but they believe they are doing the right thing.

Do we want politicians who can think for themselves and promote views they believe in or party hacks?

Can i ask this.
If we had all after a few month gone ok, not great result, lets sort this.
Do you think we could have had BINO or Norway style exit. Took out the hard brexitters as it was still brexit.
I said yesterday Eu membership wasn't my priority, I'm gue

Sorry on phone and posted early.
I am guessing similar for most of population at

I give up
Most of population at time.
So I think we could have accepted in due course and left under BINO or Norway style and most people would have been happy.
But both extremes seem happy for us to end up with the worst deal
So sodding sad

But if both extremes had shut up, accepted the vote and got one with it. I honestly think we could have ended up much closer to your BINO.

I disagree. The UK voted only on whether to leave the EU, not how to leave the EU. Leaving the SM and the CU or going WTO was not on the ballot paper - these extremes have only been pushed after the Referendum, before the Referendum the Norway model was being pushed as a likely option.

Soubry is not trying to stop Brexit (she voted to trigger Article 50 - the only Tory that voted against was Clarke) but she is all about damage limitation - mitigating the harm that will arise from what the extreme Brexiteers are pushing for.

Worth reminding ourselves that the refetendum was advisory, unfairly and ineptly constructed (typical Cameron), won by a small majority only despite the lowest possible threshold.

user, I continue to find your comments incredibly simplistic.

You keep reverting to the 'if we all play nicely it'll be fine' school of thinking.

The fact is the hard line, swivel eyed Brexiteers just want us to jump off a cliff. They can afford for that to happen, n fact many will profit from it.

Remainers are just trying to temper that in order to ensure we get out of this mess without sending our country into meltdown.

A lot of us on here have said since the referendum that TM could have handled this much better if she'd acknowledged the vote was close and aimed to build a consensus from the beginning.

She did the complete opposite and just banged on about 'the will of the people', 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'citizens of nowhere'

There has been no attempt to bridge the divide, in fact the government have gone out of their way to widen it.

This continued refusal to acknowledge the problems coupled with our arrogant insistence that we can still have conflicting things like 'frictionless trade' and no hard border is the reason the divide is getter wider.

Hammond is not speaking because it was reported his views are not helping us towards a deal, it seem his foot is in his mouth.

To gain a deal you need a side that holds the same views, and if he can't stand beside the cabinet then he should RESIGN and join the lot that are fighting to overturn Brexit...

Also if Barnet continues to hold firm, for the EU side then doesn't that mean he will be the reason we do just walk away? You say he has to do this, but then IF he can only hold to this position the there is no way to reconcile, as I don't think the PM is going to just roll over.

@mummmy2017 you seem to be truly beyond help. What exactly would you like Barnier to concede to that would not violate EU rules and be unfair to EU27 members?

People don't seem to want to see that sometimes you just have to accepted that if your not happy in a relationship you just LTB and start again.
It's not jumping off a cliff as we do have assets and things to offer in the world as a whole, yes it may be hard BUT we are not going to be penniless, we won't all starve, and we won't just stop trading.
So if we can't fly to EU then they can't fly here... it's not all just one way.
We can still go to the EU, there will still be trains and ships, and your being very simplistic if you think the plane thing won't be sorted ASAP..
If we do know there is no deal then do you really think all the problems are just going to sit there and not get solved because they have to be left alone never to be resolved, because that is the Remain head in the sand reply.,

There are already people starving in this country. The ones queuing up at food banks