The Brexit Arms

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Thought I'd dust off the optics & open the bar for the festive period

If any of the the old crowd are still around, then do pop in for a Christmas catch up & join me in toasting the end of the beginning!

Onward! To Brexit!

🍷 🥃 🍸 🍹 🍾 🥂 🍻 🍺

Actually, after reading lonelyplanet's post - wrt 'the poor' and politicians - I used sloppy language yesterday.

The middle classes, ruling classes & champagne socialists love the poor!
They love them because they're controllable. Control the resources (benefits etc) & you control the people - keep them grateful & keep them dependent.

It's the rest of the working class they hate. They cannot stand the idea that someone they view as 'lesser' has an opinion which diverges from theirs. How dare it be possible that their vote is considered equal to someone who is likely to have left school to work (rather than go on to higher education) and is therefore 'uneducated'.

Laughable that leavers still think Brexit is some sort of “win” for the poor and marganilised. It is these groups that will suffer the most from Brexit. Remainers have been pointing this out yet get accused of being champagne socialists for doing so!

The Tory brexiteers love divide and conquer, class war. Rich privileged folk tell the poor that they will look after their interests. Orwellian. Play the piano.

The working classes as 'poor & marginalised' is such a tedious stereotype.

Perfectly possible to be working class & not feel in need of, or indeed require, 'saving' or looking-after by the chattering classes.

lonelyplanetmum

Remainers hate poor people, uneducated people, & old people

I was actually referring to the typical remain voter on MN & other social media.
We know leave MP’s are rolling in money - so what?
Brexit isn’t typical party politics, so why you’re banging on about cuts to universal credit etc is meaningless, what’s that got to do with anything? ( all these cuts happening whilst in the EU btw )
I haven’t got a problem with rich people backing the leave campaign - campaigns need rich people or they’d never happen.
But it’s this insistence that all remainers care about the poor. That’s bollocks.
According to many remain voters on MN we’re uneducated racists. Or too old to vote. Would you like me to c&p the 1500 examples?
And I’m sure the Gina Millers of this world have used their own money for court battles, purely for the benefit of poor council house dwellers - nothing to do with protecting their own interests.
Stop wasting your time.
We all know the score here.

Surfer - on another thread I have been told that because I'm a conservative supporter I can't possibly support improvements to the NHS and increases in Nurses and Drs! All conservatives want to dismantle the NHS apparently!!!

Corcory, I do hope you're not one of those 'uneducated' working class types that is considered a class traitor by the hand-wringing middle classes for daring to vote differently to how an 'uneducated' oik is expected to vote?

Don't you know that there is only one correct view - that is: socialists = good, kind, caring, anything else to the right of that = mean, nasty, bully.

If you are middle class then it is ok to have an opinion obviously - but if it's not some form of empty virtue-signalling and faux concern about the poor and vulnerable then it is nonetheless still a wrong opinion even though you're permitted to have it.

So much straw, so many men.

According to many remain voters on MN we’re uneducated racists. Or too old to vote. Would you like me to c&p the 1500 examples?

Yes please. Just to prove you're not using your usual hyperbole.

if I’m left wing why is my concern about poverty not deemed genuine by leavers?

Supporting free market conservatism isn’t particularly compatible with protecting the welfare state and NHS. See the last 30 yrs for details.

Surfer - on another thread I have been told that because I'm a conservative supporter I can't possibly support improvements to the NHS and increases in Nurses and Drs! All conservatives want to dismantle the NHS apparently!!!
TAAT is against MN rules, but if you're referring to the 'How Will We Know...' thread, your spin of what was actually written is rather interesting. My reading of it was quite different; the gist being that if you support (vote for) conservatives, you are supporting their ideology, part of which is the dismantling of the NHS. The government has already cut bursaries for HCP students, therefore that is what you're supporting when you vote Tory. You may not find that idea palatable, but that's how politics works.

If you really do want to support the NHS, you might consider supporting a different party at the next election, after reading their various manifestos and looking at their previous record in office on issues that are important to you.

You can care about 'the poor', 'the vulnerable' & poverty all you want.
But caring is the preserve of the hand-wringing do-gooders.

It is the continual conflation by some of 'the poor' and the working classes that I abhor.

The sneering middle classes always express shock! And dismay! Whenever the working classes dare to hold a different view to the one they 'should'.
It's of great concern to them that the opinion of the 'uneducated' holds exactly the same weight as theirs when in the polling booth.

if I’m left wing why is my concern about poverty not deemed genuine by leavers?

If your concern is genuine, why do you need it to be deemed so by others?

Concern is not something that needs to be actively applauded, validated or congratulated, surely?

I care about poverty, but I don't seek the approval of others for that concern, and am spectacularly unbothered whether anyone thinks it genuine or not.

I’m not looking for applause. My voting preferences are based on what I believe will have positive outcomes for the majority inc the vulnerable etc. Inevitably I didn’t vote for Brexit. Nor have i voted for right wing parties that have enabled the gap between rich and poor to get ever wider!

Thank you for sharing your credentials as proof of the genuine nature of, and the depth of, your caring.

I'm confused though.
Because someone agrees with the Tory ideology of aspiration enabling social mobility, and because someone thinks that leaving the eu will benefit the working classes, they are therefore not considered to be 'caring' by your measure?

It matters not though, as I'm perfectly happy with my choices & require no validation or approval from others, so please view the above as a rhetorical question only.

Ignore 30 yrs of failed domestic economic policies if you want. Social mobility is a crock. Food bank use is on the rise. That is reality not a slogan on the side of a bus.

I’m not convinced social mobility and this Tory government are compatible.

Neither did the Social Mobility Commission.

metro.co.uk/2017/12/03/theresa-mays-social-mobility-team-quits-en-masse-over-inequality-in-britain-7127657/

The point I object to on these threads is the presumption that only labour voters are allowed to be compassionate and care about the poor and that 'others' - Tories don't care other wise why would they vote Tory.
The same was said of me about the NHS = The oft repeated nonsense that the Tories want to 'dismantle' the NHS so you can't possibly care about what happens to it if you are a Tory.

I live by the presumption that we are all good caring people not that it's an us against them situation in the care and compassion stakes!

Bored and unable to sleep, since I don't have an FT sub I googled another source for tugtupipe's link. Interesting. I'm in the last category.
www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/the-six-tribes-of-brexit-revealed/ar-AAtFagO?li=AA4RFe

There was a period, which tailed of in the early 80s, when you might have been able to make a credible case that aspiration leads to social mobility and that this is a meaningful tory ideology, but Mrs T - especially her fatal council housing policy - put paid to it. The dual policy of mandating council house sales and banning the reinvestment of proceeds in new or refurbished council homes created our world in which housing is an 'investment' and eg 40% of mps across both parties are private landlords, and wages are no longer linked to mortgages.

This single act of gerrymandering put paid to the tory ideology of social mobility. And it had a built in obselescence which is only now coming home to roost with the brexit vote.

Tragically thatcher sowed the seeds of fascism in our country. Instead of looking for the real culprits, people are encouraged to look for traditional scapegoats viz immigrants and the unemployed.

What a mess.

Instead of looking for the real culprits, people are encouraged to look for traditional scapegoats viz immigrants and the unemployed.

What a mess.

So true.

Worthwhile insomnia Figment. Fascinating article not least because it has a missing 15% and seems to suggest there are no Tory voting Remainers (unless they are one in the same?).

I don't fit any of the tribes which suggests as per the polling for the "surprise" result the pollsters still need to get out more.

The same was said of me about the NHS = The oft repeated nonsense that the Tories want to 'dismantle' the NHS so you can't possibly care about what happens to it if you are a Tory.

Jeremy Hunt co-authored book calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html

Virgin Care wins £700m contract to run 200 NHS and social care services

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/11/virgin-care-700m-contract-200-nhs-social-care-services-bath-somerset

Tragically thatcher sowed the seeds of fascism in our country. Instead of looking for the real culprits, people are encouraged to look for traditional scapegoats viz immigrants and the unemployed.

Nonsense.

Scapegoating of of the unemployed & immigrants goes back centuries.

In fact, the late, 'great' William Beveridge advocated sending the 'unemployable' off to penal colonies, and trying to restrict the breeding of 'inefficients'.

Also, wrt Thatcher, the number of council houses built under her tenure was huge - hundreds of thousands a year.

All sold were supposed to be replaced - that was the goal; the right to buy also moved working classes from the expectation of being lifelong renters to the reality of being homeowners.

Ghost it was the Labour Party who started charging for the NHS in 1951. Even further back at the outset they bowed to pressure from doctors to keep a quasi private model for GP services. It was Labour who introduced PFI and decentralisation under Blair.

www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bevan_aneurin.shtml

"Use of the private sector
The Government has embraced the private sector, both as provider of services to NHS patients and, through the private finance initiative (PFI), as a financier of new hospital buildings. Since 1997, 68 new hospitals have been built or are underway and the Government is well on its way to meeting the target of 100 hospital schemes by 2010. As a result, there have been major improvements. In 1997 the average age of NHS buildings was older than the NHS itself; now in 2005, less than a quarter of NHS buildings are that old. However, critics argue that PFI cuts beds and can deliver poor-quality buildings. Savings may be marginal in the long run."

www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/field/field_publication_file/independent-audit-nhs-under-labour-1997%E2%80%932005-sunday-times-march-2005.pdf

I don't fit into any of the tribes either - I'm working class, centrist, non-degree educated (but only because I chose Work over uni , not because I didn't have the qualifications to go).

I would probably describe myself as a pragmatic leaver.