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The Brexit Arms

999 replies

BrexitArmsLandlady · 08/12/2017 21:45

🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧

Thought I'd dust off the optics & open the bar for the festive period Xmas Smile

If any of the the old crowd are still around, then do pop in for a Christmas catch up & join me in toasting the end of the beginning!

Onward! To Brexit!

🍷 🥃 🍸 🍹 🍾 🥂 🍻 🍺 Gin

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17
CardinalSin · 18/01/2018 00:14

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FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 18/01/2018 00:21

I'm not a troll Cardinal - I've been in the Brexit threads since the beginning under various names, used to participate regularly on the WM threads too before they started getting too repetitive & cliquey.

Calling someone a troll just because you don't like them is so lazy.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 18/01/2018 00:27

Also intrigued re the assertion that I only slag people off - I don't believe I do tbh.

This evening I've been called numerous things by other posters - should I not challenge that? Should I stay silent?

Why on earth would I do that?

SoulStew · 18/01/2018 05:35

Well. My goodness! I missed a good night in here 😬. I should point out however, that faith is not our elected queen bee, she put in a good bid for the role during our weekly brexit-troll meeting, but she wasn’t nearly goady enough for it. Her hands are also far too dainty and hairless.
mummy was considered too, but we discovered she actually cared about the mental health of the remainers, and was sent for ‘re-training’.

Moussemoose · 18/01/2018 07:08

Faith please challenge any unfair comments. The tradition way to do this is:

  1. make a point
  2. provide evidence - a quote perhaps
  3. explain why you have an issue - analysis the point if you can.

Just saying "I don't like it and it's pish" lacks rigour.

No one wants you to stay silent but posters would like debate.

mummmy2017 · 18/01/2018 08:12

Why do people think the EU have suddenly do an about face, after saying we had triggered 50, and cant come back, they are now saying we can do a 49'er and remain?

twofingerstoEverything · 18/01/2018 08:39

Why do people think the EU have suddenly do an about face, after saying we had triggered 50, and cant come back, they are now saying we can do a 49'er and remain?
One reason might be because they know leaving the EU does not have the full support of almost half the UK population. Another might be because it's becoming clear that this is rather a mess and they pity us. I'm not sure why this is an 'about face'. I wasn't aware that the EU had previously unequivocably stated that the UK couldn't 'come back', (Art 49 allows rejoining), but perhaps you are better informed than me, mummy.
Why do you think they might have said it, mummy? What is your opinion on this issue?

MsHooliesCardigan · 18/01/2018 08:40

mummmy It’s interesting that you seem to interpret this speech as indicative of the fact that the EU don’t want us to leave because they know they have more to lose than us or see it as suspicious in some way.
The EU said from the beginning that they didn’t want us to leave and were disappointed about the referendum result but respected the decision.
I saw this speech as giving us a way out of what an increasing number of people are seeing as a catastrophic decision without losing face.
IMO, after the way we have behaved, I wouldn’t blame Junker and Tusk for saying ‘Ok, piss off then’ which is about the level we have been operating at. I saw it as them trying to be grown up about this.
They will lose out financially if we leave but, as has been pointed out numerous times, not as much as we will.
It’s basically a lose lose situation but we are by far the biggest losers.

OliviaD68 · 18/01/2018 08:42

@mummmy2017

In my view:

  • they don't want us to leave (and never have)
  • they want to make sure voters are aware of the reversibility of the A50 process bc the govt has not indicated this is the case (not indicated it can't either as far as I know?)
  • they are aware voters are changing their minds and want to help them do so in greater numbers

I don't recall the EU ever saying we could not come back. But I do recall HMG and prominent Brexiters saying so.

MsHooliesCardigan · 18/01/2018 08:45

I also think that many of them feel a genuine sadness at watching a longstanding close ally totally self destruct - a bit like watching someone you love make what you believe to be a massive mistake like marrying an abusive man or descending into addiction and having to just stand by and watch when you can see where their behaviour is going to lead.

time4chocolate · 18/01/2018 08:53

Olivia98

  1. agree, they don’t want us to leave
  2. if you are referring to Article 49, that’s rejoining not reversing, two very different things as you are aware and would probably require another referendum which no one has an appetite for (certainly not for another 10 years)
  3. disagree with you on this point but hang on to it if it helps you.

I see lots of people are wearing their EU rose-tinted glasses this morning.

mummmy2017 · 18/01/2018 09:03

I was thinking more about the way it was portrayed last summer.
How we would be leaving and that was that.
Now in a few days they suddenly saying don't go, change your mind, had they tried harder before and acknowledged that there were real problems in the way the UK saw their membership, maybe they could have averted this before it started.

Bearbehind · 18/01/2018 09:06

The EU haven’t done an about turn, as others have said, they’ve made it clear from the start they don’t want us to leave.

The only people who cannot see how detrimental Brexit is are leavers.

Remainers and most of the EU appear to see what economic and political suicide it is and are trying to get us off the cliff edge.

It’s all linked to the questions I’ve been trying to discuss-

  • if we’ve committed to a no hard border we can’t operate under WTO
  • if we effectively stay in the SM, just with a new badge, what’s the point?

The EU can see as clearly as most Remainers can that there isn’t an outcome which is compatible with our so called red lines.

OliviaD68 · 18/01/2018 09:09

@time4chocolate

  1. Yes. A50 notice can be reversed and A49 relates to the process to rejoin. There is a legal opinion that I'm aware of that concludes that Parliament MUST have decided to leave (it has not), failing which the A50 notice (of an intention to leave) simply lapses. The technical reason is that the UK would have not fulfilled its constitutional requirements under A50(1) and thus A50 notice has not converted into a leave decision.

  2. this process does seem to be genuine as I expected it would eventually. I was optimistic but unsure in December; now my confidence level is significantly higher. We can hold different views on this.

MsHooliesCardigan · 18/01/2018 09:10

time rose-tinted glasses refers to looking back at something and only remembering the good bits. Nobody can have rose tinted glasses about the EU because we’re still in it.
I have never heard a single remainer saying that the EU is perfect- not one. I am personally highly critical of many aspects of it but still consider that, on balance, staying is the better option. I see leaving as the ultimate example of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

OliviaD68 · 18/01/2018 09:15

@Bearbehind

- if we’ve committed to a no hard border we can’t operate under WTO

Actually this is the case under a Canada-style DCFTA as well. Anything but SM/CU membership which necessitates a border - ie checking VAT, rules of origin and reg compliance

- if we effectively stay in the SM, just with a new badge, what’s the point?

It's actually worse. Like Norway we would be a rule taker with no influence vs now. And a Norway model would still lead to a border.

Also, I believe agriculture is excluded under EFTA ...

mummmy2017 · 18/01/2018 09:17

It's just after all the Postering by the Eu leaders, the way they have all suddenly piles on the you could stay attitude, and being very vocal about it this week, seems very odd.

Should they not from the start have been saying as soon as the vote had been counted, and before the Articular 50 was used, hang on lets talk, lets see what we can do to make this stop.

It just feels like the bully suddenly realising that victim does hold some value and that they have made a big mistake, and they had better make a big show of it, before others suddenly wonder if the victim might actually have a fair point, and that you can walk away.

time4chocolate · 18/01/2018 09:29

misshoolies Rose tinted glasses ‘used to describe an idea or a way of looking at a situation as being better or more positive than it really is
a rose-tinted vision of the world
He tends to view the world through rose-colored glasses*

The size of our cheque book not getting a mention leads me to the above definition.

I’m not saying it’s all been bad but have come to the polar opposite conclusion to you.

Bearbehind · 18/01/2018 09:35

Should they not from the start have been saying as soon as the vote had been counted, and before the Articular 50 was used, hang on lets talk, lets see what we can do to make this stop

They did.

The EU have made it very clear from the beginning the didn't want us to leave.

It was TM who carried on regardless an insisted on triggering A50 before she thought about the repercussions.

The EU can see how this is going to end up and are offering a get out clause.

We have absolutely no intention of walking away with no deal-

-we can't afford to

  • we have no infrastructure in place to do so
  • we aren't making and plans to do so
  • DD criticised the EU for making plans for no deal because he said it undermined the confidence of UK businesses; that's not the thoughts of a man who thinks no deal is even a remote possibility.

We are just huffing and puffing and over stating our own importance, but, everyone knows it's just bluster.

That leaves SM lite; still paying for access but with no say on the rules and being bound by them.

What other plausible alternative is there, taking into account the border issue?

mummmy2017 · 18/01/2018 09:53

The Border issue is just one issue that is very important to you Bear,
There are 26 other countries that also have big issues.

You act as if there is only one way.
But there seem to be many options.

OliviaD68 · 18/01/2018 10:02

@mummmy2017

Why is the "border issue" not important in your view?

twofingerstoEverything · 18/01/2018 10:23

The Border issue is just one issue that is very important to you Bear,

It is also important to other countries of the EU, in particular Ireland. Do you think it's not an important issue, Mummy?

Bearbehind · 18/01/2018 10:25

The border issue should be important to everyone mummmy

It makes leaving the SM pretty much impossible.

By committing to never having a hard border we've back ourselves into a corner wrt the option we have.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 18/01/2018 10:49

Try as I might, I cannot find where Mummy says the border issue is not important.

Misquoting & misrepresentation is a large part of the problem in these discussions.

Bearbehind · 18/01/2018 10:53

faith can you please stop trying to derail conversation by nit picking on phrasing.

You continue to contribute nothing to the discussion but are just circling in order so swoop on semantics.

mummmy has said numerous times we could just have a border if we had to because it would be the EUs fault not ours.

She thinks it's easily resolved.