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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/08/2017 13:49

^www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/08/15/the-government-s-customs-union-plan-is-an-absolute-dog-s-bre
The government's customs union plan is an absolute dog's breakfast^

Well, that was a cheerful read....

LurkingHusband · 15/08/2017 13:55

And this is the lull before the storm. Wait until a refreshed and revived HoC gets it's teeth into things HmmHmmHmm

US-bound DB has booked a couple of days of to chase the eclipse next week. Apparently his (US) boss commented that the Brits really seemed to like dim things.

Who says the Americans don't get irony .....

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 15/08/2017 14:27

From that Ian Dunt link: The British plan is to leave the customs union and then create a new customs union which does exactly the same thing as the one it just left.

This was pretty much my reaction to the headlines...

Of course the first (and as yet) only comment on that piece is from Tom Smith (I suspect, probably, not their real name):

We should just walk away from the EU once Article 50 notice has been completed. No negotiation is necessary.

I can understand people have some skepticism towards the EU. What I don't understand is why apparently so many people are so heavily invested in the idea in severing all ties with it as fast as possible. To my mind it's a bit like knocking down your whole house and rebuilding it from scratch because the wallpaper is starting to show its age.

prettybird · 15/08/2017 14:37

The Ian Dunt blog was interesting. It finished by saying that "the Brexit department announces its consultations [at the end] with businesses and trade groups on the new arrangement. "The government would particularly welcome views on…. whether [it] should consider any additional or alternative proposals".

But, but, but, DD said on BBC Breakfast this morning that they'd spent the last year consulting with businesses and that this was the result Confused

Which is it?

Or could he just be embroidering the truth about what his department has been doing Wink

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 15:22

^Nick Clegg book will reveal How to Stop Brexit
The ex-deputy prime minister’s ‘resistance handbook’, out in October, explains how the EU referendum decision can be reversed while reuniting the UK – and seems destined to fill many remoaners’ Christmas stockings^

www.theguardian.com/books/2017/aug/15/nick-clegg-book-will-reveal-how-to-stop-brexit

Smile
MsHooliesCardigan · 15/08/2017 15:28

That Ian Dunt is beyond depressing. I totally agree that 'The government would particularly welcome views on whether... [it] should consider any additional or alternative proposals' is basically code for 'Help! We don't know what the fuck we're doing'.

When London won the Olympic bid in 2005, they erected a massive digital clock at Stratford counting down the days until the opening of 2012. Maybe we should do a similar thing for Brexit?

prettybird · 15/08/2017 15:31

I do like Nicola Sturgeon's comment on the proposed "temporary similar arrangement" Grin

"Why don't we just stay in the customs union? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck."

Sturgeon: UK's Brexit customs union plan 'daft'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40934980

Seems to be a pretty unanimous consensus on the government's fantasies proposals. Wink

TheElementsSong · 15/08/2017 15:49

Dearie me, that Ian Dunt is such an unbelieving expert elitist Remoaner, isn't he? All those ghastly details and facts. Ugh. There are 17 million voters who know a whole lot better than him and so he should shut up and get over it. Or maybe not shut up, because he needs to pull together to make Brexit a success.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 15:50

"The newly-published paper says the UK could ask Brussels to establish a "temporary customs union" after it leaves the EU in March 2019."

Confused

So Brexiters don't like the EU customs union, because EU -= baaad
so they ask the EU to create a new one

Presumably because DD has no clue how to do so.

Bad news is: can't be done in time
Worst news: why the hell should the EU go to all this bothef to create a temporary version of something they already have ? Confused

It seems bleeding obvious that the UK should stay in the EEA, single market, customs union and all, at least as a transition, but preferably longterm too

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 15:53

May is a lame duck.

She'd be quackers to continue like this, but the Tories are too confused to do anything else.

LurkingHusband · 15/08/2017 15:56

"The newly-published paper says the UK could ask Brussels to establish a "temporary customs union" after it leaves the EU in March 2019."

Quite aside from the hubris, even the tone of the reporting suggests that there is no acknowledgement that the answer could be "No." (or "Non", for those of us with a knowledge of history).

Cailleach1 · 15/08/2017 16:12

In the absence of an agreement to the contrary, we are now in the transition. The gov't should be busy, busy, busy. Instead of making the goings on in the entrails of the Con's the country's business. Countdown to 2019. Anything which needs to be in place after that has to be negotiated and agreed with the EU. Not even talking about a FTA. Any movement on the three issues or is it all this playing around? Has anyone told the Con's these need to be worked on before other talks? No, the EU never mentioned this.

So, the Brexiteers think the UK making decisions collectively with the other EU members is undemocratic. But a third country, non-EU UK, unilaterally making decisions for and trying to shape the EU to it's whim is all good.

TheElementsSong · 15/08/2017 16:17

So, the Brexiteers think the UK making decisions collectively with the other EU members is undemocratic. But a third country, non-EU UK, unilaterally making decisions for and trying to shape the EU to it's whim is all good.

It's because the EU are foreign, which puts them in the wrong. We're British, which makes us right about everything. Do keep up.

Cailleach1 · 15/08/2017 16:17

And why is Nigel Lawson suddenly an expert on global warming? What are his credentials on this issue? And whose interests is he working on behalf of?

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 16:22

Still pretty exciting over in Chapland:

@jameschappers 14m14 minutes ago
Would you like me to go on? I could tell everyone how you advised on how to get pro-Brexit lies on @BBC?

Cailleach1 · 15/08/2017 16:24

TheElements, one may think that is a joke. It's not, though, is it? It just gets more incredible.

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 16:26

@jameschappers
James Chapman Retweeted KathShez
Licence fee payers picked up the extremely large bill. Shepherds wasn't it @afneil? Do hope it was all declared #thedemocrats #wemarchon

Apparently he's just gone the full Chapman

Cailleach1 · 15/08/2017 16:28

He has his own agenda, but it does cheer the soul, woman. It is like a veil being parted and finally some acknowledgement the Wizard is just a guy pushing some buttons. The guy who supplies the snake oil salesmen outing the scam.

SwedishEdith · 15/08/2017 16:33

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-customs-union-transition-deal-david-davis-boris-johnson-hardline-brexiteers-making-it-up-a7894741.html#commentsDiv

"Brexiteers are sensing the day of accountability for their project approaching. The hardline backbencher Bernard Jenkin gave a BBC interview earlier this week in which he castigated not ministerial incompetence, nor his own side’s undeliverable pledges, for the looming customs fiasco, but EU vindictiveness and unreasonableness.

It is a line we can expect to hear much more of as the edifice of the Brexiteers’ promises – on customs and everything else – crumbles in the coming months. The self-preservation blame game has begun."

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 16:42

Robert Weaver‏
@robweaverwm
The @jameschappers saga gets more interesting. Tories making mental health insinuations. He surely seems to know where bodies buried.

@jameschappers 9m9 minutes ago
Hundreds of them #thedemocrats #WeMarchOnJames Chapman added,

Right I'll step away from the twitter, sorry folks, but I think a story is about to break; the "self preservation blame game" coming soon, may be linked.

Yes, he does have an agenda with GO etc, Calleach1 , but Cleggy's too nice, most of the remain MPs are, we may have found our rotweiller fellow traveller, for the moment.

BiglyBadgers · 15/08/2017 17:48

I'm finding the Chappers tweets really quite entertaining. He does appear to be enjoying himself enormously and I do like to see someone haveing a good time tearing into the tories Wink

BiglyBadgers · 15/08/2017 18:06

I am also finding it interesting how the Tories have clearly learned nothing from their failiure to pull Corbyn down with outrageous personal attacks. The insinuations about Chapman's mental health coming from the conservatives are pretty low down dirty. I can't see it achieving anything, but make them look even more awful. Surely if they made a bit of effort they could manage a marginally better strategy to oppose him than thinly veiled suggestions he is having a breakdown. Hmm

HashiAsLarry · 15/08/2017 18:09

Well I may have MH issues if I'd worked in that department too. All that no direction and flip flopping would be highly irritating Grin

lalalonglegs · 15/08/2017 18:37

He is staying on the same Greek island as a friend of mine, she knows his wife slightly. He's quite sane - she has promised to buy him an ouzo on our behalf when she runs into him again (it's a very small island).

Peregrina · 15/08/2017 18:57

Wait until a refreshed and revived HoC gets it's teeth into things

I sincerely hope that they are not as supine as the last Parliament was. Even if I did believe that Brexit was a good thing, which I don't, it would still gain enormous benefit from being robustly debated and argued. We might just then get something a quarter workable.

What did DD do to upset Chapman so?

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