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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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BiglyBadgers · 15/08/2017 19:03

Oh lala, do have your sister tell him that Mumsnet is enjoying the entertainment. Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 19:57

Michel Barnier @MichelBarnier 7h
The quicker #UK & EU27 agree on citizens, settling accounts and #Ireland, the quicker we can discuss customs & future relationship.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 20:00

Barnier won't be considering even sane suggestions on trade & customs before those 3 issues are broadly agreed.

TheNumberfaker · 15/08/2017 20:01

Lala, can you ask your friend to tell Chappers to stop using Trumpisms. Not a good look with his target audience!

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 20:01

(paywall) Pro-Kremlin hoaxers ‘posted fake Guardian article online’

tps://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/pro-kremlin-hoaxers-posted-fake-guardian-article-online-xxm8tbjc9

Pro-Kremlin operators are suspected of being behind a sophisticated “fake news” article claiming that MI6 masterminded a plot to destabilise Russia.

The hoax article, which was designed to look like a Guardian online news story, purported to be an interview with Sir John Scarlett, the former head of MI6.

In the fake piece, Sir John is quoted as claiming that the Rose Revolution in Georgia in 2003 was organised by British and American intelligence agencies to bring about the “strategic disintegration” of Russia.

It was said to be part of a broader secret plan for Nato to take control of “all of Russia’s shores, along with the Black Sea”.

The article, which has the same font, format and banner as an authentic Guardian news story, appears under the byline of a genuine reporter at the newspaper.

Whoever created the hoax also secured a plausible-looking domain name,“theguardıan.com”,
with the Turkish character “ı” masquerading as the “i” in the paper’s web address.

There is no suggestion that the genuine Guardian website was hacked.

The fake piece was removed yesterday after the clumsy language used in the story caught the attention of Russia experts, who suggested that it had been concocted by pro-Kremlin supporters — possibly unofficial to promote a “narrative of western aggression”.

Ben Nimmo, of the Atlantic Council digital forensic research lab and an expert on European security and hybrid warfare, said:

“This is a combination of technical skill and linguistic incompetence which has all the fingerprints of pro-Kremlin operators,

though it’s not clear whether they’re official operators such as the troll factory, or independent operators.

“The effort to mimic the Guardian website is quite skilful, using a fake URL very similar to the real one, and linking back to genuine articles.

The use of language is much less skilled and has mistakes typical of Russian speakers.

“The overall narrative is consistent with Kremlin claims of western plots to dismantle Russia, especially ones backed by the CIA.
....
Intelligence agencies are increasingly aware of pro-Russian efforts to influence public debate and news coverage in western nations, following the hack of Democrat emails during the 2016 US presidential campaign, which was widely blamed on Russian hackers.

German officials have taken steps to protect their election next month from “fake news” propaganda,
after protests erupted in January last year over a bogus Russian media report about the alleged rape of a 13-year Russian- German girl by a migrant.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 20:03

Anonymous EU politician:

"British wanted special treatment as an EU member
and now it wants special treatment as a non-member."

BiglyBadgers · 15/08/2017 20:48

Well, at least we're consistent bigchoc. Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 20:53

Richard North tweets a 5-to summary of the plan , ending with

"This is, in effect, a back door attempt to restore Single Market status to the UK, something the EU has already said it will not allow."

mobile.twitter.com/RichardAENorth/status/897455317839118337

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 20:55

Commentators btl on his blog today also raised the point that

what the UK is proposing may breach GATT / WTO:

It is permitted to create a temporary customs union under Article XXIV/5 *
but only if it's part of a transition towards a permanent union, not as part of a transition for leaving^ one."^
Confused
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86571

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 21:05

James Chapman, former Chief of Staff to Tory Brexit Secretary David Davis, has exposed a series of startling revelations about his former boss.

In a series of damning tweets this morning, Chapman claimed that he once caught Davis ‘leering’ at Diane Abbott in a ‘bullying and aggressive’ manner, as well as exposing that the Brexit Secretary had former UKIP leader Nigel Farage on speed dial, and most worryingly of all, that the Tory MP got ‘easy rides’ during BBC interviews because of his close personal relationship with top Beeb presenters.

evolvepolitics.com/david-davis-revealed-to-holiday-with-bbcs-john-humphrys-and-drinks-regularly-with-andrew-neil/

It's still a work in progress, but the current thread about Govey is pretty spicy, and what Chappers intimates about BJ. Sarah Vine is defending poor little MG.

Spetses. Smile

woman12345 · 15/08/2017 21:16

@peterkyle 5h5 hours ago

Sunday: We will leave Customs Union

Today: We're going to set something up that's identical to Customs Union

I still don't understand why we can't just tell Brexiteers, that Brexit happened on June 23rd 2016, they get a flag, they can be in charge of patriotic songs, and have turnip pie eating competitions on village greens, and that's Brexit.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 21:26

A Conservative MP will go on trial in May next year on charges relating to his 2015 general election expenses.
Craig Mackinlay, who faces a jury trial, is accused of offences under the Representation of the People Act 1983, alongside Marion Little, a campaign director, and Nathan Gray, an election agent.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/15/date-set-for-conservative-mp-craig-mackinlay-trial-over-election-expenses

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 21:28

After Gina Miller said that the threats of acid attacks and other serious violence might force her to leave the UK,

Leave.EU didn't condemn violence
but seemed to be celebrating.

In fact Arron Banks tweeted "cracking news" Angry

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/08/11/week-in-review-gina-miller-and-far-right-terrorism

Peregrina · 15/08/2017 21:44

Just change the passports to navy blue, and job done. We can't go back to the old style navy blue passports though, because the current format is a product of international agreement. Or maybe we should just decided to leave the rest of the world, and then we needn't worry about international agreements.

Lolabridges · 15/08/2017 21:57

There doesn't seem to be too much worrying going on about an international agreement that is the GFA.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 22:07

Guy Verhofstadt ✔ @GuyVerhofstadt
To be in & out of the Customs Union & "invisible borders" is a fantasy. First need to secure citizens rights & a financial settlement
12:56 PM - Aug 15, 2017

BigChocFrenzy · 15/08/2017 22:09

I presume these fantasies are aimed at the Tory Party Conference, because Barnier & Verhofstadt have dismissed them immediately

Lolabridges · 15/08/2017 22:15

Gimme Gimme Gimme a border till midnight. LOL.

The hubris gives me a good laugh anyway.

prettybird · 15/08/2017 22:20

BigChoc - I did wonder this morning whether what was proposed would be compatible with WTO/GATT rules, given that it would involve preferential treatment without a FTA Confused

But there again, I'm only a lowly citizen and not an expert and haven't spent the last year checking out what is and isn't allowable. Wink

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2017 22:26

What did DD do to upset Chapman so?

I currently am watching someone 'do a Chapman at local level'.

I'll tell you want upset Chapman. They went against democratic principles and the transparency that is key to that.

He is the good man who doesn't want to turn a blind eye or is happy to not rock the boat. He wants to get that boat rocking and everyone on board feeling bloody sea sick.

The storm is coming in British politics if you ask me.

Young people (by that I mean people from 18 - 45 who are the baby boomer losers) are going to turn on those they see as corrupt in a big way.

This goes one of two ways.

A lot has been talked about how the Far Right comes in and we go down that road.

Democracy does either die....

...Or there is a big revival in people's belief in it. Which means it will be something of a puritanical crusade if it happens. Anyone who fails to declare interests. People who have money off shore. People who skip around tax laws.

Corbyn isn't it. He's lying too.

The old guard will close ranks and protect themselves and their mates. Labour is actually doing this, with Brexit. It won't work.

At local level you have people who have 'done years of service' and 'so much for the community' but are happily taking back handers which everyone knows about but no one reports. I think that will change.

At some point, I think a few test cases will come up and the dam will burst. People will start shop people and people will get the shredders out and delete their in boxes. There is a massive battle coming.

This is why I think this case about Freedom of Information and Government with regard to Disability Cases, could be a big game changer.

Its hugely generational what is happening. Chapper's response is about how he is angry about what is being done for our future and our children's future.

The 'Lost Generation' are not going to lie down and take this, no matter want the polls say about Brexit opinion.

The three big words here are these:

'Conflicts of interest'

in the context of allowing personal gain above the national or local interest.

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Peregrina · 15/08/2017 22:44

But there again, I'm only a lowly citizen and not an expert

Then you are the ideal person to look to for advice, because, we have all had enough of experts.

But seriously, I am pondering your last post red. I suspect something like the huge political change after the last war, could come about. I believe that this took the Establishment by surprise then - the narrative went that Churchill had won the war for us - and then astonishingly people didn't vote him back in gratitude but gave Labour a landslide. Conditions are different now, but with huge job insecurity for younger people, plus a broken housing market, conditions are ripe for change - it just lacks coherence at present. I think you have said yourself before, that Brexit is a symptom rather than a cause.

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2017 23:20

Peregrina, there is something in the air that's generational with the Conservatives in particular unable to adapt to that change. Their demographic will produce a tipping point eventually. I just can't see how they reverse that.

Meanwhile the Labour party does have that, because it had youth on its side at present, but it also has an untenable position which is in direct conflict to many who support them.

That means a political fracture is on the cards, and it's a question of who manages to come in and take advantage of that first.

Everyone has talked about a socialist revolution in momentum. Lots of people have talked about Right Wing. But many of our country's problems lie with failures in transparency and the failure of democracy. Its not just about inequality. To fix the country, there needs to be big changes in that area and personally I think that there are lots of individuals who see this and it's not just me, who has waffled on about it relentlessly for over a year.

It's a question of those people coming together and doing something constructive to achieve that.

I personally do not think the LDs can fill this role. They are unable to deliver on the principle of a puritan revival in democracy because of their history with the coalition. And because they are 'the establishment' too.

There will be some sort of 'revenge of the remainers'. The idea that a whole generation is just going to sit there and take Brexit up the arse, when it's their future is one that seems incomprehensible to me, even given levels of apathy. This is my best prediction for what it will be.

To me, I start to think that's merely just a matter of when, not if. Whether that's before Brexit or after, I don't know.

We might well see a growth in right wing movements, and a continued resurgence of the left. But there is also something else there and I think it's slowly gathering a bit of steam and forming. We just can't see exactly what it's going to become yet.

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RedToothBrush · 15/08/2017 23:33

When reality hits there will be no escaping it, even if you are a political windbag.

That's going to have a lot of power for anyone who can set themselves up into a 'i told you so' position before Brexit.

There will be lots of spin and trying to look like the British are going everything to get a deal and trying to make out the EU are the bad guys (potentially to try and set up that hard Brexit and a public accepting of its inevitability). But against some one rational, passionate and who accurately spells it out ahead of time?

Who are people going to believe?

Especially if the balance of power has been in the traditional centre ground still.

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RedToothBrush · 15/08/2017 23:51

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-aide-launch-new-political-party-reverse-brexit-second-referendum-james-chapman-the-a7895411.html?amp
David Davis's former chief of staff to launch new political party to 'reverse Brexit with no second referendum'

'I did my best to make Brexit work for a year - and it won't. There is no upside,' says James Chapman

Chappers media strategy is going to be, Daily Mailesqe attack dog but going after political dickheads. More popularist Private Eye type vision. Call the bullshit where you see the bullshit, and let's not be polite about it. The more column inches he can generate the better. He's done pretty well for day one.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 00:02

Let's see if my prediction above is better than this beauty someone just retweeted:

Andrew Lilico @ andrewlilico
FWIW (not much) my guess is Trump will win over the British public quite quickly now & become fairly popular here. (Doesn't mean he's right)
27th January 2017.

From a leading light of Brexit thinking.

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