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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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Motheroffourdragons · 17/08/2017 09:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

LurkingHusband · 17/08/2017 09:37

You could kinda do that with all languages, if feeling juvenile.

Which I was Grin ...

(What schoolkid doesn't snigger at rude-sounding foreign words ? Whether in German, Farsi, or Sanskrit ...)

Peregrina · 17/08/2017 09:41

To be honest, if I had voted leave I would be pretty pissed off ....

The Remainers will be pissed off too. What an achievement, unite everyone in their unhappiness.

TheElementsSong · 17/08/2017 10:00

To be honest, if I had voted leave I would be pretty pissed off ....

Yup. You can see that from the increasingly interesting tone of Leavers on social media.

This farce is going to cost us all, for no positive effect, and all we're left with is Just Believe and The Cost Will Be Worth It (where It is undefined, as is the eventual timescale for Worth It).

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2017 10:05

I'm starting to think Brexit will be dead in the water by Xmas, it is unravelling at alarming pace.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/08/2017 10:09

I'm starting to think Brexit will be dead in the water by Xmas, it is unravelling at alarming pace.

Ever known the Tories to give up on an ideology though? How many economists told them austerity wasnt going to work, they still pushed ahead with it.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2017 10:12

Austerity was cooked up by the Tories and sadly many think it works. Brexit was a nasty surprise for the Tories and neither leavers or remainers will be happy. The controlling borders idea is ready coming unstuck.

DrivenToDespair · 17/08/2017 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cailleach1 · 17/08/2017 10:45

They don't even have to be foreign words, LH. All Creatures Great and Small got a whole programme with someone's horse pronounced 'orse. As in 'me 'orse needs looking at'. 'What about me 'orse?' It was very funny in an innocent way.

Accents too. As in the cows, calves and cars in exaggerated Cavan accent. All with a qw sound. There was an Irish comedy sketch on that one. Didn't know which words was being uttered. Complete over exaggeration for comedic effect. It was funnier than it sounds. Not nasty. Similar could be done on any accent. Accents, dialect and languages are fabulous riches. Trouble is, people whose aim is to demean take the p out of them in a nasty way.

Not always about incoming languages either (ones after the arrival of English, that is). There was a programme (Newsnight?) on recently and one of the sections was 'should the Welsh language be protected?' Seriously, like that is a question.

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 10:57

I am not sure it will be by Christmas but the zeitgeist is certainly turning. The article from Vince Cable is more of the same but he seems more and more confidant of rebels on all sides working together if the Labour Party don't spot an opportunity, and Tom Bradly seems to be sensing the same track in terms of the political opportunity for Labour, though it has been glaringly obvious though it is in the Standard Hmm

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vince-cable-might-not-happen-eu-uk-withdrawal-lib-dem-leader-comments-a7897386.html

www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/tom-bradby-if-we-re-not-out-of-the-eu-by-the-next-election-we-may-never-go-a3612071.html

Why does Vince mention the Nationalists though? Surely that is the DUP who favour Brexit and have been bribed ""The Labour party may for its own reasons choose to break this up and try to limit the Brexit process and if it happens and there is a significant group of Tory rebels working with us, the nationalists and quite a lot of Labour rebels then the thing could get unravelled politically."

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 11:06

driven yes, that has been changed to include non married fathers on birth certificates. Or it had 6 years ago, could have changed back. I also had a friend stunned to discover his dc weren't British. Not that he'd bothered getting on their birth certificates or even wanted to after that though he was a twat

Cailleach1 · 17/08/2017 11:12

Is that not the SNP? I think that one of the aims of May's election was to take the threat out of the SNP. Kind of achieved. Although, arguably still very strong and in the majority from Scotland. I cannot believe Angus Robertson lost his seat. His replacement in Ian Blackford is not as good. Charles Kennedy was treated quite badly, allegedly by Blackford's campaign. Blackford took Kennedy's seat.

Cailleach1 · 17/08/2017 11:15

Wow, Chapman's new account now suspended.

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 11:18

Is that true cail?
Right I'm off to don my tin foil hat Wink

Peregrina · 17/08/2017 11:19

Wow, Chapman's new account now suspended.

So someone is clearly rattled.

squoosh · 17/08/2017 11:20

Curiouser and curiouser...

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 11:21

Ah, his original account now appears to be back.

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 11:21

Driven As an alumnae of a university with a high proportion of overseas students and in the nature of it's specialism students with a particular predisposition to embrace other cultures, often literally, I have been well aware of just how inhumane our immigration processes have become. It came to a head with the rounding up of students and illegally supporting them. It has been discussed on this thread at length but thanks for confirming it from the inside.

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 11:24

Burnham and Khan to be frozen out of the Labour conference in favour of the "Fab Five" . It's like school. Come on Thornberry and Starmer are you really going to sleep easy in this exclusive gang.......

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sadiq-khan-andy-burnham-labour-conference-2017-speeches-axed-as-corbyn-leads-fab-five_uk_5994ba6de4b06ef724d6258c

SapphireStrange · 17/08/2017 11:57

Fuck, ron, that's appalling. Shock I'd write to my MP, but she's one of those in the cool-kids gang so wouldn't give a flying fuck.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 17/08/2017 13:33

Oh come on, this is just more shit-stirring from the "moderates". Normally no-one could give a flying fuck who's billed to appear, or not appear, at a party conference. Except when Corbyn's involved, when it becomes major headline news. I'm surprised you fall for it.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2017 13:50

Agree with pp. So much hysteria when the blairite centrists don't get their way.

BiglyBadgers · 17/08/2017 13:52

From that article

Jeremy Corbyn and his closest allies are to be given “starring” roles at the Labour party conference - but city mayors Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan face being left off the speaker list, HuffPost UK has been told.

Corbyn and four Shadow Cabinet ministers will be given the prime speaking slots at the gathering in Brighton next month, while delegates will also get more time to debate key issues.

So they are prioritising speaking places for people in the shadow cabinet and increasing the amount of time for open debates. I really can't see the problem here. The fact that it says "face being left out" tells me whoever wrote this really has no actual idea of whether they are speaking or not and is just making unsubstantiated assumptions. Hmm

missmoon · 17/08/2017 14:27

The fact that Labour's two most powerful elected politicians are not being given top slots is very odd, I would have thought?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2017 14:42

Only if you over think it. As always JC is damned if does and damned if he doesn't