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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 16:00

I agree, Labour's success stories in the very heartlands of their power. At the last conference Sadiq was cheered for that success and for what he had to say about his experience. His last year has been even more successful. He and Andy Burnham have spoken up as unifying forces for communities facing the worst of times, terrorism and Grenfall. Corbyn was there too but Grenfall should be changing the political landscape and as many voices should be heard as possible. I am sorry but from the outside it just looks like tribal politics, the same problem we are seeing with the Tories, and Brexit as a whole. Who is speaking up for the interests of the country, rather than their party. Here in London at least it is Sadiq..........

woman12345 · 17/08/2017 16:23

Interesting thanks whatwouldrondo uncle sensible. Hopefully.

I really liked the philosopher on the video that followed Cable.

A wee bit sweary but funny and spot on commentary.

On white colonialism (and the anomaly of armed white men insisting that Mexican and Native American land is theirs) " Anywhere that is hot, ain't yours.......... that's why there's factor factor 50 for you , man." Grin
" and *Donald Trump looks like a bag of Wotsits, bruv."
He does doesn't he.Grin

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 16:27

Talk of a new centre party does seem to have got the left worked up though. Owen Jones has been on a rant in the last couple of days. I don't doubt he gets a lot of flack from all sides, nasty people vulnerable to getting overinvested in any tribe, or as likely against any tribe can pop up anywhere on social media, look at what happens if someone mentions MILs or Stepmothers on here.... However he specifically singled out the sort of shit that comes from all directions as coming from the centre directed at his pro Brexit stance as if this was to a greater extent than it would come from the Brexit side if he was anti Brexit (which I very much doubt) and also forgetting that those that are anti Brexit can be right wing too.

Today his target is anyone who is not ideologically on the left or right. Lumping all the others into a big pot with Blair and Cameron as pro regulated markets (probably broadly true) but also warmongers, with no reference to the fact that broadly speaking those on the centre are pro welfare state and health service. I would bet that a lot of us on the anti Iraq war marches were not particularly left or right and would be in favour of raising taxes to fund the welfare state and health service to an extent that broadly alines them with Labour policy if not to the £ / wanting a viable economic plan.

It is all rather cleverly worded to make the centre into a homogenous whole and then lay all the mistakes of Cameron and Blair at it's door.

It just seems more of the same, putting tribe and ideology ahead of the interests of the country, trying to silence opposition, divide and rule.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2017 16:28

Tell leave voters in say, the north east that Khan is speaking for the interests of the country and you'll get laughed out of town. I like Khan but I sense some desperation here that people will cling to anyone who might offer a centrist view. That view was rejected at the GE. Khan and Burnham are already high profile figures and I feel essentially buying time until a promotion opportunity arises in the future.

woman12345 · 17/08/2017 16:34

Uncle Karl Marx would have said 'unite and fight' to remain in the EU, that would be the only way to win.

Americans are putting up a tremendous fight back against neo Nazi rule or whatever we are supposed to call it:

A large crowd of protesters gathered outside a sheriffs office in Durham, Virginia on Thursday morning in an attempt to get the charges against Takiyah Thompson dropped. Thompson was arrested on Tuesday for tearing down a confederate monument in North Carolina in solidarity with Charlottesville.

www.thefader.com/2017/08/17/durham-protest-solidarity-with-takiyah-thompson

Some one up thread said that US resistors were wishful thinking or something. (fake news? Grin)

There have been hundreds and thousands of heroes since November:
disabled activists fighting for ACA;
anti Moslem ban protestors in airports;
flash protests against ICE deportations.

Lots of collective action.

And as red said ages ago, he's not been able to control the agenda since Friday.

LurkingHusband · 17/08/2017 16:35

DEFRA hiring 1,400 people (didn't realise the UK had such a surfeit of talent ?) to deal with Brexit

www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/17/defra_to_recruit_1400_policy_folk_to_deal_with_brexit/

Exclusive The Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs (Defra) is hiring 1,400 "business policy" folk to work out how the department will untangle itself from Europe after Brexit, according to multiple insiders.

Of those, 300 will be looking at the tech/policy side of things, including decoupling systems from decades of European legislation. The rest will be focused on policy, management and process overhead, said one insider.

(contd)

I wonder how much above market rate they will be paying ?

woman12345 · 17/08/2017 16:36

Unite and fight means remainers across all parties, all groups, all pressure groups, everyone working together to stay in the EU.

Divide and Rule worked well in weimar.

woman12345 · 17/08/2017 16:40

He advised the new recruits be given a "heavy duty crash course" in all the technology and systems underpinning current legislation, before tackling the hugely complex challenge of how to migrate away from them.

"There is no point in building new systems before we know what direction we are going in," he said

All under control then Confused LH

BiglyBadgers · 17/08/2017 16:45

The main problem I have with the conference article is that reads as being based completely on an assumption that because they are prioritising the shadow cabinet and more open debate this will keen Burnham and Khan are off the agenda. It is all hearsay and supposition clearly designed and worded to get people in a rage and fuel the split in the party.

In my opinion that mayors are important in their local area, but the shadow cabinet is important for the whole country. It is also completely in keeping with Corbyn's general way of working and focus on the membership to want to increase debate time for all delegates rather then focus on the big speeches.

I am increasingly in a rage about labour pissing around brexit, but I just don't get the issue with this at all.

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 17:15

woman Thanks for that, made me laugh out loud, a tad embarrassing and unbritish as I am on a train.......

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 17:23

Ghost Bigly I meant exactly that he was speaking up for London. If you think that deprivation and the frustrations with government policies are confined to the North East then you have not driven past the horrific blackened human coffin that is Grenfall. As you know I do understand the issues of the North East but to laugh at someone speaking up for London is frankly tasteless in the circumstances, and just more divide and rule / chippiness. I get it all the time from people who live in all those comfortable villages in beautiful countryside that surround you. "You Londoners don't know you are born" Try telling that to all the people on London estates like Grenfall.

LurkingHusband · 17/08/2017 17:24

Talk of a new centre party does seem to have got the left worked up though.

Given the deafening silence from my Labour MP, my response is boo-fucking-hoo. I'm not ideologically wedded to Labour. But I am ideologically wedded to staying in the EU.

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 17:30

it isn't just that Sadiq has spoken out on issues of deprivation and government neglect. He has also spoken out the impact of Brexit on our most successful industries. For sure they are not spread out to bring benefit to the regions in the way they should have been under an umbrella of government investment in infrastructure but you do not benefit the country by making London poorer, it isn't just the tax revenues, it is all the ancillary activities and suppliers that are in the regions who will suffer.

Policy should not be based on division.

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 17:39

ron yes, there is this odd assumption that London is rich. Sure there are areas that are, but they're largely small pockets of wealth. Greenwich for instance is seen as rich and leafy, but it houses kidbrooke - one of the most deprived areas in the country.
My family were talking the other day about how wonderful Tottenham Hotspur were for looking after the locals by ensuring some season tickets were kept aside at the new stadium for proper local purchase. I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Just how many Tottenham residents do you think can afford a season ticket? Most of them they reckoned. A place where nearly half the resident children live below the poverty line. Confused

BiglyBadgers · 17/08/2017 17:47

As you know I do understand the issues of the North East but to laugh at someone speaking up for London is frankly tasteless in the circumstances, and just more divide and rule / chippiness

What the heck? Who was laughing? I have no idea why you have got the impression I am being dismissive of London and Grenfall and find your implications a bit offensive to be honest.

I can absolutely see why people would say Khan would be a good person to speak, but I also think there is good reasons for members of the actual shadow cabinet to speak. If time is limited then I don't think deciding to go with the shadow cabinet is such a shocking decision. Whether it is the decision you would make or not is a different matter, but it is not a crazy choice. Besides, the whole article is made up from rumour and shit stirring, so how about waiting until the actual timetable is released before getting all shouty about it.

RedToothBrush · 17/08/2017 17:49

business-reporter.co.uk/2017/08/17/politicians-find-frightening-suggest-brexit-disaster/
Politicians ‘find it frightening to suggest Brexit could be a disaster’

Finding a spine, right about now, would be nice.

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GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2017 18:04

I think Corbyn, as a London MP is quite capable of talking about Grenfell and London as a whole.

Talk of a new centre party does seem to have got the left worked up though

Not really. The GE was only 3 months ago and there was clearly little appetite for a centrist party. This is just another attempt (after the many previous) to undermine Corbyn. Save your contempt for the Tories.

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 18:15

The GE was only 3 months ago and there was clearly little appetite for a centrist party.
This is only as true as saying 80% of voters voted for brexit 3 months ago.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/08/2017 18:29

The GE was only 3 months ago and there was clearly little appetite for a centrist party.
This is only as true as saying 80% of voters voted for brexit 3 months ago.

Its exactly the same if thats your agenda

squoosh · 17/08/2017 18:37

Save your contempt for the Tories.

I have as much scorn for the Tories as ever. But as long as Labour are happy to follow Corbyn over the Brexit cliff they'll receive just as much scorn too.

HashiAsLarry · 17/08/2017 18:42

Its exactly the same if thats your agenda

Indeed. Let's not forget there was also little appetite for Corbyn only three months before that, hence all the Tory landslide predictions.

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 18:46

Bigly It was ghost who said people in the North East (not you specifically) would laugh at Khan speaking for the company, and I agree sadly that IME of being in the North East on a regular basis they probably would. London as well as the EU are held responsible for all problems.

Not really. The GE was only 3 months ago and there was clearly little appetite for a centrist party What I took from the election was that the main appetite was for anything but the Tory party. People, especially younger people, were turning out in bigger numbers than ever before for anyone who could oust the Tories in their constituency and whose policy was to protect the welfare state and NHS. I suspect that the weasley wording in the Labour manifesto on a job protecting Brexit lulled a lot of them into what turns out to be a false sense of security that they would not jump off the cliff edge with the same alacrity as the Tories.

I would be interested to know if any of the anti Brexit Labour voters on here are now coming round to the Brexit policy in the way that Owen Jones has?

whatwouldrondo · 17/08/2017 18:47

country not company

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