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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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BiglyBadgers · 16/08/2017 09:50

If Chapman's party kicks off than Labour will have to respond with a much clearer strategy around brexit or they risk a split in their vote.

However, Chapman may have a problem gaining a significant proportion of the youth vote due to his history with the Mail and the Tories. The youth who support labour like and value consistency in principles. This is one of the reasons JC has proved so popular, because he has a long and consistent record of opposing the Iraq war and welfare cuts, etc (brexit being the exception to a degree). I am not convinced yet they will buy Chapman's damascene conversion to the light side.

It is certainly an interesting one to watch though and I am inclined to think that despite all the potential risk, something is needed to change the brexit narrative and maybe this will be it.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 09:50

James Chapman @jameschappers
Hello @daviddavismp is it true you told a friend of a friend if you'd known what a nightmare it would be you'd never have advocated Brexit?

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 09:53

Chapman only needs to get a claw into liberal Tories. He's after ConKip.

Will it damage the lib Dems? Imo no. They will have to raise their game tho.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 09:57

Do you recall, in these very threads, talk of revolution with heads on spikes ? The French way ?

I do.

I am very aware of the actions of the Royal Family in this context.

The Queen v May on Grenfell says much.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 10:05

Fleetstreetfox @ fleetstreetfox
As for the Mail's insane campaign to keep Big Ben bonging - they've got to take the entire mechanism apart. IT CAN'T BONG.

"Can't it bong when the workmen aren't there?" No, cos it takes half a day to lower the weights down tower to turn the fucking thing off.

And it takes another day to pull it back up again. The best you could is get it to bong once every 2 days, and there'd be no time to fix it.

You want it bonging, you've got to fix it. You want it fixed, you've got to take it apart. Fucking basic engineering.

"Why can't I still drive my car while it's in the garage?" Because you're a moron, that's why.

The Sun's even got a piece today arguing Big Ben should bong because Brexit. I mean what?

To me that just sums up the whole mentality of Brexiteers and The Sun / Mail.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 10:08

t.co/AV0GgFpsSh?amp=1
Berliners frustrated over restaurants where no German is spoken

No this isn't about people from the middle East.

It's about us.

Jens Spahn, Merkel's right-wing deputy finance minister, told a German newspaper that “it increasingly drives me up the wall that waiters in some Berlin restaurants only speak English”.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 10:14

Sajid Javid @ sajidjavid
Neo-Nazis: bad
Anti-Nazis: good
I learned that as a child.
It was pretty obvious.

This is a Cabinet Minister criticising Trump.

Noteworthy.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 10:16

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/over-100-cross-party-politicians-demand-action-over-muslim-problem-article-in-sun-newspaper-a7895211.html?amp
More than 100 cross-party politicians demand action over ‘Muslim Problem’ article in Sun newspaper

Exclusive: The letter to paper’s editor – signed by 107 MPs – was organised by the Labour MP Naz Shah and includes prominent politicians, including former Cabinet ministers Baroness Warsi and Anna Soubry

My only question is why we don't have a lot more than 100 signing this?

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woman12345 · 16/08/2017 10:32

IT CAN'T BONG. Can't help thinking that bongs in the other pot smoking sense might bring a bit of wisdom at the moment.

HashiAsLarry · 16/08/2017 10:39

I'm pretty sure bongs have been used liberally by a lot of brexiteers. It's the only way to explain the contradictive thinking. Well, either that or Wink

PattyPenguin · 16/08/2017 10:41

Some people don't need chemicals to stunt their brains. And yes, I'm calling them stupid.

What else do you call people who can't understand that a thing won't work while it's in pieces for repair?

Motheroffourdragons · 16/08/2017 10:44

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 10:51

James Chapman @ James chappers
You always know when @daviddavismp is lying because he starts twiddling his glasses #nazisout #thedemocrats

This is funny.

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woman12345 · 16/08/2017 11:06

And funny to that a tory is now calling his own folk nazis.

Mebbee being in Greece is helping. Living memory of fighting nazis and having their own, American assisted fascist coup in power.

David Duke has just endorsed Nigel Farage for PM on twitter.

squoosh · 16/08/2017 11:09

Theresa May’s non reaction to Trump’s press conference is utterly pathetic, yet unsurprising. What a feeble woman she is.

‘But….but…but……….what if I publicly rebuke him and then he says we can’t have his chlorinated chicken?’

SwedishEdith · 16/08/2017 11:16

The glasses twiddling is when he's making it up - winging it.

Agree with misti's assessment of JC but his pissing off of Sarah Vine, Oakeshott and Dorries is good enough for now. All of them trying the gaslighting, "you're not well" approach.

squoosh · 16/08/2017 11:19

Agree with misti's assessment of JC but his pissing off of Sarah Vine, Oakeshott and Dorries is good enough for now. All of them trying the gaslighting, "you're not well" approach.

Yes! I love seeing these horrific people getting in a tizz. I bet they're having furious What's App group chats. 😅

SwedishEdith · 16/08/2017 11:21

Grin. But the encryption! What about the encryption and the necessary hashtags?

squoosh · 16/08/2017 11:26

Don't worry! Amber Rudd knows a chap who's a jolly whizz on Necessary Hashtags! He took the Hashtag course at MIT 😄

SwedishEdith · 16/08/2017 11:26

Phew!

whatwouldrondo · 16/08/2017 12:04

Misti But Chapman is approaching this like a tabloid journalist not a politician. I agree that his approach will not win the majority of the centre ground and the young BUT looking at it strategically in a war where battles have been won, particularly the Brexit vote, by an alliance with tabloid journalism that was effectively unopposed (apart from the Mirror) finally Remain has someone to throw into opposition. He is neutralising tabloid crowd pleasers like Davis. If you look at it in terms other than that of tribal politics, Brexit won because it mobilised people who had not voted before behind an emotive cause that mobilised and bought together, forces that included imperial nostalgia, right wing conservatism, left wing anti business /corporatism ( Labour Kippers quoting the TTIP even though it was vetoed), racism etc. via the tabloids. This has been the power base of the Brexiteers, it is "the people" they claim the mandate of.

Remain and the centre have made the mistake of only fighting on the front of the rational, the educated and the informed. That took May from decisive victory to almost losing but the Conservatives have picked themselves up and though in disarray mobilised (they think) their power base to carry on as before. Perhaps Chapman is the new weapon of the centre ground that enables Remain to fight on that front too?

The danger we have is that the right wing of the Conservatives consolidate their power within their party perhaps behind a popularist leader like Mogg, and press ahead in dismantling the processes of parliamentary democracy. I know Mogg seems unlikely to the rational but look at how he has got the centre and left rattled. Look how popular he is with "the people" as in the forces I identified above, they love him in the Barmy Arms, he is a posh Trump.

Chapman might just be the one to stop that by fighting them on that populist front, exposing the self interest and incompetence of their leadership.

Cailleach1 · 16/08/2017 12:22

woman "Apparently Larry is the only permanent member of the government in residence at number 10."
Love it.

About the Irish situation. No way are Ireland's ports ready to take the traffic going to and from Britain. Even if you are only counting using it as a land bridge to the Continent mainland. That is not even going into NI. Most Irish traffic goes through the UK.

"The Welsh port of Holyhead faces “chaos” if a hard border is introduced between the UK and Ireland, with the shipping industry and local politicians warning of lorries carrying perishable goods queueing for miles while they wait for customs clearance.

Holyhead, on Anglesey, is the busiest roll-on-roll-off port in the UK after Dover, with 400,000 trucks a year passing through on the way to and from Dublin."

Other ports affected too.

Ireland had better be doing something to keep their non UK trade free from the Brexiteer's reach. These guys want to sink others, not just 'take back control'.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/16/welsh-port-fears-chaos-of-uk-leaving-customs-union-holyhead-ireland-brexit

NI uses this route for convenience too, for Britain. They will have to improve Cairnryan capacity etc. as well. But stops for checks not the same issue.

As for NI Irish citizens having to take a British identity to apply for jobs. That kind of undermines the parity of GFA. So someone from the Ukraine could apply as a naturalised Briton. But not someone from NI who is perfectly to retain their own identity, cannot. Hmm.

And putting Owen Patterson on news analysis for NI as someone with either knowledge or a balanced view of the whole Irish border issue is a joke. Nothwithstanding any previous sinecure in the place. Think of Villiers or Brokenshire as likewise expert or balanced.

LurkingHusband · 16/08/2017 12:26

Somedays are worse than others ...

today is a bad day for LHs mental health, and reading shit like this doesn't help.

Here's the phrase which pushed me over ...

"If you look at what [EU chief negotiator] Michel Barnier has said and others within the EU, there is a recognition that there will need to be specific arrangements in relation to customs and other elements in terms of creating that frictionless border," he said.

The entire tone of that somehow sends the message "Oh, look, the EU has finally caught up with us" which is the exact reverse of the reality.

I'm not sure how much more of this I can take.

On the plus side (as predicted) the surge in the price of BitCoins has helped the Lurking household ...

RandomlyGenerated · 16/08/2017 12:38

I'm not convinced that James Chapman has any intention of starting a new party - I'm more minded that he's having a jolly time shit stirring and enjoying the fall out.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 12:42

But Chapman is approaching this like a tabloid journalist not a politician

PRECISELY!!!

What generates headlines?

The Lib Dems problem in being so serious and focused on policy is that they don't sell newspapers or fuel click bait. That's the reality of the media in this country.

Where the LD have often generated PR it has been when the LD press office has gone humorous / sarcastic / controversial. But as a rule, its difficult to break through into the media for them.

Chapman, is well connected and understands this world better than most. He is not 'having a meltdown' as Oakenshott would like us to believe. He's just doing back to them what they have done to everyone else, to try and discredit and to try and provoke debate.

Its noticeable that when the boot is on the other foot, suddenly this person has mental health issues (nice slur btw) when they can rant and rave about 'Enemies of the People' to their hearts content.

I personally, am finding that aspect of it all, utterly hilarious.

As a serious political movement, even if it does nothing, the fact its ruffling the right feathers is a good thing.

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