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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 12:50

www.gov.uk/government/publications/northern-ireland-and-ireland-a-position-paper
The Government's position on Northern Ireland

Conor James McKinney‏*@mckinneytweets*

twitter.com/mckinneytweets/status/897776947715026944

And a nice little tweet storm about how it doesn't really say a lot.

OP posts:
whatwouldrondo · 16/08/2017 13:00

I now have Professor Brian Cox in my inbox 😃 "' I have a face reserved for people who think the Earth is flat. It appeared whilst reading this account of the customs union position paper."

Cailleach1 · 16/08/2017 13:02

"He's just doing back to them what they have done to everyone else, to try and discredit and to try and provoke debate"

That is just it. They don't like it back at them. Play them at their own game. They have been using this ploy without any comeback at all. Mainstream on the back foot wondering why normal way of discussing things aren't having any impact. Or is being heard.

One distinction is that the Brexiteers got away with uncorrected lies and baseless bs. Or lies where the corrections may as well not have been uttered for all the good it did.

Cailleach1 · 16/08/2017 13:04

Well, Mr Cox does tick all the boxes.

fakenamefornow · 16/08/2017 13:22

Can I just add that if anybody says that Leave voters aren't racist, just direct them to the Leave EU facebook pages. I've been following them since before the referendum, the racism is shocking, with very few dissenting voices and complete out-and-out hate filled racist posts getting hundreds of likes. Don't take my word for it, have a look yourself.

fakenamefornow · 16/08/2017 13:29

Just had another look, loads of comments about how great Trump is for saying what he did.

Cailleach1 · 16/08/2017 13:40

I said to my OH that Trump memorised that statement very well. The one a committee obviously wrote or requested to be written for him. To try and salvage something where the damage had been done. It brought to mind the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard piece after they were caught avoiding animal checks in Australis. OH thought it was more like a hostage reading something out.

His latest equivocation is not a surprise. Bit by bit, it takes more for him to shock people. What a small man.

TheElementsSong · 16/08/2017 13:41

Careful fakename, noticing these things makes you the bad guy. Apparently.

Cailleach1 · 16/08/2017 13:51

"[Trump] just said and did whatever it took to get what he desired," she said. "That is quite terrifying, because it means there's a lack of morality there and a lack of conscientiousness."

Helen Mirren is on the money about Trump.

I don't think Ivanka or Melania Trump are responsible for him, though.

www.washingtonexaminer.com/british-actress-helen-mirren-ivanka-trump-has-no-substance/article/2631631

AnnieKenney · 16/08/2017 14:49

Mr Cox does tick all the boxes

Oh yes. He'd get my vote.

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 14:50

today is a bad day for LHs mental health keep the faith Flowers Smile

Today programme interview with Fianna Fáil politician was embarrassing for the BBC interviewer who apparently didn't realise there would be a problem for Ireland accepting British border control staff on their side. She seemed flummoxed that there were any historical issues with English officials on Irish soil. Confused

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 14:55

In Chapworld Channel 4 have withdrawn interview slot with Chappers, some say they were leant on by the con /kips. I have noticed there coverage has got really odd since the London Bridge attack.

LurkingHusband · 16/08/2017 15:24

Today programme interview with Fianna Fáil politician was embarrassing for the BBC interviewer who apparently didn't realise there would be a problem for Ireland accepting British border control staff on their side. She seemed flummoxed that there were any historical issues with English officials on Irish soil.

There must be somebody else who wondered about the nominative determinism in linguistics which makes Fáil so close to "fail" ? As in "epic" ...

SwedishEdith · 16/08/2017 15:38

How would C4 be leant on by ConKip? I assume you mean C4 News? It was funny when Matt Frei was interviewing some French politicians/commentators in Paris after Macron's win when ,on the subject of Brexit, one of them guffawed at Frei and said, "Ha ha, but you know Brexit is a pile of rubbish".

whatwouldrondo · 16/08/2017 15:51

Following the point about Trump's dishonesty it occurred to me that it is on a matrix which I described on another thread to make a point. I'll repost here. Discuss (especially the fellow non NTs who think in weird matrixs Grin)

You could plot politicians on a matrix with two intersecting axis, the horizontal one x based on degree of honesty and the vertical one y based on degree of intellect. As a measure Trump would be at the (ironically) far left of the honesty axis and Obama at the far right, and Trump at the bottom of the intellect axis (though i don't doubt there are even stupider ones but lets face it not so many so cognitively impaired in terms of judgement by dementia / narcissistic personality personality) and Obama at the top. So far bottom left and far top right respectively.

I do prefer my politicians in the top right quadrant. I do think you could put Vince Cable there, Anna Soubrey, Chukka, Lammy, Norman Lamb and Corbyn (except Corbyn is down the axis on intelligence because he lacks the emotional intelligence to be a good leader) and Ken Clarke . I think Michael Heseltine may be straying towards the dishonest end of the axis (Westland and all) with, and I am sorry, Nick Clegg (I don't think he is otherwise unprincipled, certainly not on Brexit, but there was a whiff of being naively seduced away from his strongly made promises on student loans by the glamour of office and bromance with Cameron).

Osbourne and Cameron are firmly in the top left, along with most of the Brexit campaigners involved in the European Research Group What's App. Baker, Rabb, Gove, Johnson, Mogg etc. (we'll give Cameron a bit of a free pass on intelligence because aside from the monumental stupidity of the Brexit vote he was otherwise considerably brighter than what has followed.) The latter are the scary ones who will scheme and manipulate to further their far right agenda. Furthering and exploiting Henry VIII powers are only a small part of that.

May, her Brexiteers (apart from Boris) and Redwood, are in the bottom left, dishonest and not even clever about it.

I think we should reserve the bottom right quadrant for Leadsom, so stupid I really think she is being honest.

whatwouldrondo · 16/08/2017 15:53

Forgot some

Farage, sits with Trump. Blair with Cameron.

Putin, yeah we have someone to put at the top left....

Artisanjam · 16/08/2017 15:59

I think Leadsom belongs with Trump et al - remember the embellished CV!

Unfortunately I think there are a few Brexiteers who are in the top right quadrant - JRM among them. I don't think he is either stupid or dishonest, but he has a very particular world view which is entirely wrong (unless we are in fact living in the 1860s).

squoosh · 16/08/2017 16:00

@jameschappers

I know where every Fleet Street and Brexit body is buried and I shall exhume them all one by one #thedemocrats #WeMarchOn 9.9.17

Please do!

Artisanjam · 16/08/2017 16:06

I was walking past Waterstones earlier and noticed a new book called "histories of nations" which looks interesting - it presents 28 essays written by a leading historian as a 'self-portrait' of his or her native country, defining the characteristics that embody its sense of nationhood.

I haven't read it yet, but it got me thinking about the English national story predominantly. It seems to me that it loves a buccaneering confidence and sacrifices organised competence in favour of that buccaneering confidence a lot of the time e.g. Agincourt / the Armada/ the charge of the light brigade/ WW1 and is as happy with glorious failure as with glittering success.

The Brexiteers seem to tap into the buccaneering confidence thing nicely. Unfortunately the failure won't be glorious for long, or for many.

Anyway, that's my pop psychology for the day!

Peregrina · 16/08/2017 16:07

I would put May in the bottom right. I think she genuinely believes the rubbish that she comes out with e.g. about 'Just about managings'.
She went to Oxford so she can't be entirely stupid. Mind you, I am pretty sure that her school is largely responsible, plus a lot of plodding on her behalf. If she had gone to my school she would have been pushed into teacher training - which was the default option for most in the sixth form.

whatwouldrondo · 16/08/2017 16:16

It is about how you define intelligence though. I don't think she is stupid in terms of producing an Oxbridge essay but that is entirely different to being PM. I think she lacks imagination and an open mind and I would put the likes of Mogg and Cameron above May in terms of May because they have better political judgement.

I think Leadsom believed the CV, she just didn't notice she had been sidelined to the stationary cupboard special projects and had no knowledge or experience of what was actually going on in the City....

LurkingHusband · 16/08/2017 16:17

I was walking past Waterstones earlier and noticed a new book called "histories of nations" which looks interesting - it presents 28 essays written by a leading historian as a 'self-portrait' of his or her native country, defining the characteristics that embody its sense of nationhood.

A related book is "Prisoners of geography". It explains an awful lot about why Russia is as it is. It also explains why the US is the US, while Africa is doomed to poverty despite all our best efforts.

whatwouldrondo · 16/08/2017 16:20

Thinking about it, perhaps we move May to the bottom right, I think she believed she was acting on principal, she does not have the imagination and judgement to understand that her principals are those of a Home Counties vicar's daughter, and are not in the interests of the country as a whole. But then she did it all just to be PM.......

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 16:24

Brexit's nuts. Its supporters are nuts. Chappers is acting nuts. I don't know the sciencey equation but is this some sort of matter meeting matter thing?

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 16:57

James Chapman‏
@jameschappers
James Chapman Retweeted commentintfree
Incorrect. Despite what Greeks have been through only 30% want Grexit and they regard us with bemusement and pity 9.9.17 🇬🇧❤️🇬🇷

'Bemusement and pity' seems about right across the EU.

Theresa May, either take a stand or get the hell out of office – Britain doesn't want a PM who can't condemn Donald Trump

This is no longer about Brexit trade deals or keeping that 'special relationship' intact. It’s about simple ethics. We do not shy away from openly condemning apologists for Nazism in Britain. We give ourselves over to fighting that vile ideology

If Theresa May continues to stay quiet about Trump, she will be seen as an appeaser and an enabler – our entire country will. Her refusal to stand up to the orange bully in the White House defiles the memory of every single British citizen who lost their lives fighting in the Second World War. Our grandfathers went to war against Nazis, but in 2017 our Prime Minister cosies up to someone who turns a blind eye to their existence in his own country for votes. In the words of Theresa May’s own Cabinet minister Sajid Javid on Twitter today: “Neo-Nazis: bad. Anti-Nazis: good. I learned that as a child. It was pretty obvious

www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-donald-trump-refuse-to-condemn-sajid-javid-twitter-britain-prime-minister-step-down-a7896381.html

@jameschappers
We will not allow Nazi @theresa_may to steal our children's dreams #MakeBritainGreatAgain #thedemocrats 9.9.17 🇬🇧❤️🇪🇺

What is a nazi I wonder: a fascist thug or one who enables a fascist thug.

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