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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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Peregrina · 16/08/2017 01:04

I hadn't noticed any change in opinion with regard to Trump.

The day after his election, I went to the hairdressers, and it was the sole topic of conversation in the salon. Usually conversation revolves around chit chat about holidays, or grandchildren or school places - i.e. every day things and politics is pretty much a no-no.

The Government has gone quiet about his visit, and Macron stole a march on May by securing his visit to France first.

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 06:19

@MSmithsonPB
The @jameschappers claims about DD could damage. Just bet at 20/1 that he'll be next Cabinet minister out.

thetimes.co.uk/article/1c2aa45c-81d0-11e7-a96c-24e6c6e68b13

This is useful to labour in changing the idiotic brexit wind direction, starting the usual tory blood bath and disarming the alt right.

After the SDP, I don't think there will be any Chukas in Chappers inbox.…

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 06:23

Shadow Minister Fails To Set Out Labour’s Policy On Brexit In Embarrassing Interview

This is true, Bill Esterson found it difficult to be bullish on a fictitious and duplicitous policy. Most politicians with a moral compass would have found it impossible, in current foolish post brexit nonsense.

Labour needs remainer rotweillers too, Chappers, do you want a job?.

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 06:24

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/shadow-minister-fails-to-set-out-labours-policy-on-brexit-in-embarrassing-interview_uk_599310eae4b09071f69cd4ec ^

Although the uninformed and hectoring interview style didn't help.

Mistigri · 16/08/2017 06:27

Lala, can you ask your friend to tell Chappers to stop using Trumpisms. Not a good look with his target audience!

He's been hugely entertaining, but his tweeting history makes it clear that he is very unsuitable for office. Off-the-cuff tweets on supposed policy (some of it not thought through or just plain supid), some dodgy language, openly allying himself with toxic politicians like Jeremy Hunt.

This is not how to win over the people that would be needed to vote for a new party, ie a bunch of boring middle of the road (centre left/right) folks, mostly well-educated, business-oriented, in favour of free markets (as long as they are managed), expertise and honesty in government, good state education and well-funded public services. These are the people that you could easily steal from the current LDs, LAB and CON, but you won't do it unless you are disciplined and statesmanlike. And Chapman is neither of those things.

Don't get me wrong - i think attacking scoundrels and idiots is right (Macron did it to Le Pen very successfully in the final debate). You shouldn't pull your punches. But Chapman is approaching this like a tabloid journalist not a politician.

I assume they have people like Jo Maugham on board (see his tweets yesterday), which would be good, but not enough.

Mistigri · 16/08/2017 06:39

Although the uninformed and hectoring interview style didn't help.

Any shadow cabinet member who stands up and defends Labour's clueless, dishonest and contrdictory brexit policy deserves everything they get.

If he was taken apart by an "uninformed" interviewer, think what an informed interviewer might have done to him.

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 07:01

Labour's clueless, dishonest and contrdictory brexit policy

No, he didn't come over well, it's true, JC is short of experienced males. Shame he's not looking at the many fantastic female labour mps for the shadow cabinet.

The reason labour's policy is clueless is the assassination of Jo Cox which has silenced intelligent debate, present company excluded. Smile.

I can't help comparing the citizen/ democrat/ press outrage to her assassination with the reaction to Heather Heyer's death.

If the fascist leaning right, including UKIP, and many current tories, had been challenged with integrity here, we would still have an operational democracy and remainer tories and labour would be able to speak and plan remainer policy freely.

www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-far-right-crackdown-20170814-story.html

histinyhandsarefrozen · 16/08/2017 07:16

i wouldn't exactly say they are challenging the far right with integrity in the US. I think that's wishful/positive thinking of the la times.

Their man in the wh is still defending the alt-right today. They are inpower.

missmoon · 16/08/2017 07:34

James Chapman is really stirring things up, saying a lot of things out loud that many people have been thinking for a while. His views have a lot of appeal among Tory remainers. I don't know if he can pull off his new party, but if he can push the Lib Dems, Labour, etc. to be more explicitly against Brexit then he will have done his job. I do hope it works out because we really need a centrist party right now!

BiglyBadgers · 16/08/2017 08:02

I don't think Chapman is in anyway the solution here and I don't think his motives are as pure as is being suggested to be honest. However, the brexit dam needs to be broken by someone and the Government needs to be called out for being the idiots they are. My hope is that now he has opened the floodgates others will follow.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 08:03

www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/james-chapman-daily-mail
James Chapman is the Rogue One of Remainers

The Chappers Interview.

Agree that he's not right to be a politician himself. What he has managed to do in the last 24hrs though is get people talking. He's trying to take control of the agenda and set out things for people to talk about. Given the number of column inches he has got, it's worked. He is more the Remain version of Farage than a Macron. Setting the agenda is important though as to date to little makes the news about why Brexit is a shit show and it's months and months behind what gets posted here. If he can drive things so the debate is responding properly to the incompetence on display rather than let the leavers simply create a situation where people believe it's the nasty mean EU in Brexit talks it's much needed.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 08:06

Today the government will publish it's Brexit plan for the Northern Ireland border.

This will be interesting.

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Eeeeeowwwfftz · 16/08/2017 08:09

The only people who would benefit from a new centrist party with an overtly remain agenda are the tories. This is a calculated move by the so-called progressives in the Tory party to split the labour vote - there's more remainders currently supporting labour (often with reservations that are well rehearsed) so although it might chip away at the Tory vote a little it will chip away at the Labour vote more. Result: Tory government, again, although perhaps one that is dragged back towards the centre rather than to the right by ukip who are now a spent force.

If centrism is your thing, remember that these would be the same centrists that chose to make massive cuts to the welfare bill, placing many people in poverty, instead of pursuing multinationals for the tax they morally (if not legally) owe. Those centrists who began the process of carving up the NHS and selling it off, and losing the support of its entire workforce in the process. Those centrists who privatised the probation service, which is now being bailed out by the taxpayers because - who knew - it's not so easy to run a probation service on the cheap. And, lest we forget, those centrists who thought a nice little EU referendum to resolve a dinner party spat was a sensible manifesto pledge.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 08:10

David Allen Green @ davidallengreen
EU publishes position papers on its website for all to see.

UK government doing press management exercise for today's paper.

Telling.

Indicates who UK government is really negotiating with on Brexit.

Not with the EU. But with the media, and its own backbenchers.

There should not be embargo on Brexit position papers, with advance disclosure to select media.
Should just be openly published, as EU does.

But UK prioritises winning over domestic media above persuading EU.

Like Percival at Singapore. Things pointing in wrong direction.

And into this ride Chappers, fully aware of what they were doing. That's why what he's doing is important. He's broke the line and isn't going to let them do it.

Lots of people will be very upset.

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borntobequiet · 16/08/2017 08:20

To call a new centrist party the Democrats is just stupid. It's the name of one of the big two US parties for a start. It's part of the name of the Lib Dems. And every time I've heard it mentioned in the media, it's been followed by the question "how can you be democrats while trying to overturn a democratic referendum". No one with any political nous would even consider it, which alone makes me think little of Chapman, apart from his slightly unhinged and bitchy tweets. Someone a couple of months ago - I think it might have been a sensible Tory - suggested Common Ground as a possible name. That to me has a very British, pragmatic and stoical ring to it. (I loved Macron's En Marche but it's very French, wouldn't do here in translation.)

LurkingHusband · 16/08/2017 08:21

RTB

Do you recall, in these very threads, talk of revolution with heads on spikes ? The French way ?

Peregrina · 16/08/2017 08:21

The thing I find interesting with Chapman is that he has managed to stir up a response when others, with arguably much more clout, e.g. Blair, Heseltine, have failed. What I would hope it will do is embolden MPs to vote for their principles and if they genuinely believe that leaving the EU is bad then vote accordingly.

Peregrina · 16/08/2017 08:26

We do need something like En Marche, or Podemos. Both imply either movement or positivity, a bit like Obama's Yes we can. Common Ground seems static and very Tory to me.

missmoon · 16/08/2017 08:31

I think the party name (Democrats) is intended to stir things up, and to get maximum possible exposure. It has Brexiters rattled for a start. I saw several US media pieces where they said something along the lines of "British former civil servant to set up British Democrats", so that angle plays well too because it makes people associate the new party with "liberal" values. Of course he has an agenda, and I'm not about to join his party, but I think what he's doing is great. As to splitting the Labour vote, perhaps Labour could develop a decent policy on Brexit rather than pandering to the hard Brexit crazies?

TheElementsSong · 16/08/2017 08:37

As to splitting the Labour vote, perhaps Labour could develop a decent policy on Brexit rather than pandering to the hard Brexit crazies?

Yes, this. Instead of complaining that they could potentially lose Remain votes that somehow they/we/whoever seem to consider as rightfully Labour's Confused.

Mistigri · 16/08/2017 08:55

Chapman's closeness to Osborne is a real problem for a liberal, centrist party, because while Osborne is socially liberal, he's also quite far right when it comes to handling the economy, and still wedded to a now largely discredited (by serious economists) austerity agenda. He is also part of the David Cameron government-contracts-for-my-chums way of privatising state functions.

(Note that I do not, personally, have an issue with private business being involved in some government functions. The French health service is a good example of how small private businesses - rather than the PM's big business chums - can provide public services effectively. But the UK always gets this horribly wrong).

A new party will need to make a serious commitment to cleaning up corruption and graft, as Macron as done. Not saying Macron has solved the problem - but at least he is aware of it and has clearly cast it as unacceptable.

This makes any party too closely associated with Osborne and the Daily Mail likely to struggle to get cross party support.

Mistigri · 16/08/2017 08:57

However, the use of "Democrats" is very clever - it takes the brexiters accusation that remainers are undemocratic and throws it right back in their faces.

It is probably also fair to say that it is politically accurate, since by European standards the US democrats are centre right, not centrist.

Mistigri · 16/08/2017 09:06

James Chapman is really stirring things up, saying a lot of things out loud that many people have been thinking for a while. His views have a lot of appeal among Tory remainers. I don't know if he can pull off his new party, but if he can push the Lib Dems, Labour, etc. to be more explicitly against Brexit then he will have done his job. I do hope it works out because we really need a centrist party right now!

If he can break the loyalty of Tory remainers to their party, he will put a Labour - or more likely, and better, a coalition government into power at the next election.

Don't get me wrong - I don't at this point think that Chapman's party is for me, but if he can give a voice and a platform to remain, one-nation Tories then he will have done the country a great service. Centre and centre-left remainers are still waiting for their spokesperson to emerge, but perhaps Chapman's project will be pulled left if some of the higher profile figures on the centre left join in.

PattyPenguin · 16/08/2017 09:24

A prime example of how shite privatisation usually is.

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/15/government-pulls-all-learndirect-contracts-and-funding

The story is in the Financial Times as well, but of course the FT has a paywall.

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 09:38

Apparently Larry is the only permanent member of the government in residence at number 10.

@jameschappers 12h
Where is @theresa_may? I hear she's so fed up she doesn't sleep in No10. Hand over to someone who's up to the job eh? 🇬🇧❤️🇪🇺💪🏻🔥

@eyejosh
@jameschappers
Rumour has it that Larry the Cat is now running the show - he's rather smart, so will stop "brexit" soon

Getting a little bit libelly in Chapland now regarding BJ's proclivities. Smile

On a 'democrat' party: good luck to the tory remainers.
Labour remembers well the Thatcher government enabled by the SDP, and we all know what happens when a party agrees to a coalition with the tories.