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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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JustAnotherPoster00 · 28/06/2017 16:21
Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 16:22

Thanks llurkinghusband for the link. Will draft my letter now! I have sooooo much to say!Smile

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 16:25

Laura Kuenssberg‏Verified account @bbclaurak

there we go... No 10 say policy on public sector pay has not changed

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 16:27

Faisal Islam‏Verified account
@faisalislam
Idea of public sector pay cap being about to be lifted "overcooked" I'm told. Clarity soon. Public sector pay already under annual review...

As I was saying..No 10: "Government Policy has not changed..public sector pay review bodies are going about their work.. happens every year"

No 10: "Dealing with our debt has meant hard work and sacrifice including public sector workers - pay restraint has helped protect jobs"

..so public sector pay cap not scrapped - Ministers say they are sympathetic to workers who do want it lifted.. pay review body important

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 16:27

Robert Peston‏Verified account @Peston

In the course of 3 hours government has u-turned on public-sector pay cap and then u-turned on u-turn. So pay cap stays, confusingly

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 16:30

there we go... No 10 say policy on public sector pay has not changed

colour me surprised ...

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 16:31

pay restraint has helped protect jobs

Who else reads that as the threat it's meant as ?

RedPeppers · 28/06/2017 16:44

LH thanks for the link again.
I think I'm gong to write as of I was DH (with his agreement of course!) because otherwise, Im not sure it will ever get done.

Ive left my french MP a bit of time too but feel that now he should be up to giving answers (and he is from Macron party which might help)

RedPeppers · 28/06/2017 16:49

pay restraint has helped protect jobs

Yep that using Project Fear to keep people silent.
Even though I'm struggling to see how they can explain that there is no money when they find £1.5billions for the DUP....

Do you know that the project with Hinckley is also planned to go over by £30billions? Yep that's half of what the EU is asking for or 1/3 of the budget for education...
If we are going to spend that many billions Willy Nily, why can't we spend them somewhere else??

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 16:49

Oooo, Euro MP nagging, there's an idea.

I wonder if there is any point in UK citizens with citizenship if another EU country writing to representatives in that country, to at least let them know what some UK citizens are thinking ?

Can't do any harm ? After all we've already been branded traitors.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 16:50

Do you know that the project with Hinckley is also planned to go over by £30billions?

You mean 15 DUPs Grin

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 16:52

Might see if i can persuade friends to write to their MPs or offer to write on their behalf That looks like a useful website lurking, thank you

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 16:53

If we are going to spend that many billions Willy Nily, why can't we spend them somewhere else??

Because - as people are hopefully starting to realise - "austerity" was always a political and ideological path, rather than a financially necessary one.

As I suggested upthread, we need to measure (large amounts) of currency in DUPs everywhere. Not only will it start to pick up in Google (and I'd love to see how much the Tories would offer Google to hide that search result) but it will remind people daily about the "magic money tree".

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 16:55

Another very useful site for political engagement is

www.theyworkforyou.com/

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 16:59

Thanks for the 'write to them' link, LH word of caution, watch out for sending automatic email to all your reps, could include the ukips, and you might end up pen pals with our little ukip friends. Blush

RedPeppers · 28/06/2017 17:00

I'm also starting to realise that lots of big numbers are branded around but people have no idea what they actually mean.

So there are a lot of articles about how the eu isn't going to cope without the uk, have to rehaul the budget etc... because they are missing £5.6billions. Sounds a lot doesnt it? except that the overal budget is €142 billions so actually, it's more like a drop in the ocean than a tsunami they wont recover from.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 28/06/2017 17:10

It's all very smoke and mirrors - we will make this amount sound high and that we can't afford it but we won't tell you about this other thing we are spending much more on...

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 17:10

So there are a lot of articles about how the eu isn't going to cope without the uk, have to rehaul the budget etc... because they are missing £5.6billions you mean 5.6 DUPs

Sounds a lot doesnt it? except that the overal budget is €142 billions

142 DUPs (assuming £/€ parity for simplicity)

so actually, it's more like a drop in the ocean than a tsunami they wont recover from.

Anyway, whatever the EU loses in the UKs contribution it will make up for in spades in extra investment, plus the relocated business and agencies, plus the tariffs they will charge the UK.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 17:13

word of caution, watch out for sending automatic email to all your reps, could include the ukips, and you might end up pen pals with our little ukip friends.

If they even dream of playing fast and loose with my personal data, they'll regret it.

They'll probably go down the route of my local Tory party, and just ignore the ICO Hmm

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 18:10

Theresa May wants to shut down parliament in order to retain her grip on power
www.thecanary.co/2017/06/27/theresa-may-wants-shut-parliament-order-retain-grip-power/

mathanxiety · 28/06/2017 18:16

The Hillsborough prosecutions are going to open many old wounds. Presumably there will be coverage as the trials proceed.

mathanxiety · 28/06/2017 18:25

Grifone, that cartoon is more offensive than it seems - Guinness is an Irish drink, and the DUP prefer not to think of themselves as Irish. If they do acknowledge themselves as Irish or partly Irish, they certainly do not identify with the 'Irish who drink' (i.e.Catholics) - hence this brouhaha:

"Reform of Northern Irish pub opening hours faces opposition"
Both vintners and cleric criticise proposed legislation to liberalise licensing laws
Tue, Aug 2, 2016
www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/reform-of-northern-irish-pub-opening-hours-faces-opposition-1.2741706

mathanxiety · 28/06/2017 18:28

Somerville Wed 28-Jun-17 08:20:42
So, overt anti-Irish prejudice resulting from a dodgy deal... by the DUP. That's offensive on so many levels.

Yes indeed - the ignorance on so many levels is very clear.

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 18:36

Cabinet of chaos?
Davis wants a 2 year transitional period after the 2 years are up, Hammond suggests 4 years. DD says that's not possible as it's all got be concluded before the 2022 election. (Why? And, as if they'll last that long.)

And apparently potential leadership candidates like Leadsom have not been clearing their media appearances with Downing St.

Thin veneer of unity?

uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-cabinet-at-war-over-brexit-2017-6?utm_content=buffer3e2eb&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

BiglyBadgers · 28/06/2017 18:42

No 10: "Dealing with our debt paying off the DUP has meant hard work and sacrifice including public sector workers - pay restraint has helped protect jobs corporate tax cuts"

There, fixed that for May

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