Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

[RedToothBrush]

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

If I were a hairdresser in Greece, I would be extremely pissed off. Because as a female in this officially "dangerous" profession, I was formerly entitled to full state pension from age 50 (fifty). Now I'm going to have to wait until age 67, like the rest of the world's hairdressers, basically. Of course I'd be upset.

It's like desperately listing everyyone else's health problems and bad habits to justify yourself starting - not continuing - smoking

We were in Greece at the time of their referendum on whether to accept the EU's conditions for a bailout. It was interesting talking to the "ordinary" Greeks: the lady we hired bikes from, the owner of the hotel, the taxi driver who did our airport transfers.. It was also a challenge to get money out from cash points, even though we were less restricted than the Greeks themselves). The bike hire lady said it was tough when she couldn't get money out for her kids to be able to spend as it was their school holidays.

Although they had differing views as to the proportion of "blame", a large part of it was directed towards their own government for having been profligate and getting them into that position. There was a degree of resentment towards the Germans because of what they did to them during the war (we go to Meganissi in the Ionian Islands, where the Germans were particularly brutal after they took over the Italians in WW2), so they feel that they are "owed" something by the Germans. There wasn't a resentment towards the EU per se; there has been too much investment by the EU Regional Funds into the "poor" areas of Greece.

So Irish citizens: please ask @EndaKennyTD & @DavidDavisMP - if Ireland Act 1949 doesn't stop deportation of Irish - what does it do? 16/16

Well if this is right and they start applying these kind of rules to Irish people:
1/ Also to the Irish citizens born in the north? BOOM goes the GFA.
2/ I can't think of anything they could do which would be more likely to make people vote for a united Ireland in a ROI referendum.

I also - cynically - find myself wondering what the hell the Civil Service are up to in all this ? Pre-Brexit it was possible to have this view that they were acting as a pater familias, gently ensuring that whatever individual governments got up to, it was generally in the UKs interests.

That ideal was broken many years ago, LH. The process was begun by Thatcher and accelerated by Blair. Special Advisers and open competition for promotion mean you deliver the policy the government want how they want, which is why the Brexit departments have lost a lot of able people recently. Clever people (like Sir Humphrey and Bernard) who debate options rather than say OK are persona non grata.

Wonder what Greece and Italy feels about the wonderous EU at the minute? Do they feel well loved and thought about by the other members? Are they basking in the caring, warm and secure embrace of the EU arms? They must be counting their blessings being part of the EU.

Can't speak for Greece, but in Italy, there's hardly any real acknowledgement of "the EU" as such. It's just part of life. It's a little like asking someone in Manchester "what do you think of the UK ?".

Italy has far more of a gripe about the South/North divide, with quite a lot of feeling that if only the North could dump the lazy money-sucking south, Italy would be great again.

So basically Greece can't stand on its own it needs the EU to bail it out. You really think that is a nice feeling to have? To have to rely on the EU to do that? What happens to Greece when the EU gets fed up with bailing it out? Blimey they must live on a knife edge all the time! I certainly don't want that for this country. Besides money being the new God here we have Europe as the second best thing wielding its power willy nilly. What country mainly has the more power in the EU? No really there is one country with all the power, who is it?

The Greek government ran up phenomenal debts on credit. Debts largely created through non collection of tax and giving pension and other handouts far excess of those given to the citizens of any other EU state. Despite very many repeated warnings, the government did not take corrective action.

Yes it's sad for many citizens and I fail to see a single post that has suggested otherwise, however just as in other walks of life you do not get away with running up a load of debt at others' expense and continuing to live life like it's Las Vegas.

The EU is a group of nations...the Greek bailout terms were proposed jointly by the EC, IMF and ECB...

" however just as in other walks of life you do not get away with running up a load of debt at others' expense and continuing to live life like it's Las Vegas"

I'd disagree with you there Divided. Most of the French, German and British banks and pension funds invested in Irish banks for large returns. They invested without proper due diligence. Most investments with high returns also comes high risks. Not so for these lucky dudes. While the bank should have gone to the wall, and the investments lost, the Irish gov't said "oh, we will make your loss a sovereign debt, instead of private debts and get the Irish taxpayer to give you your high returns even though you took your chances. Of course the profits wouldn't have been made sovereign and shared out. Returns may go down as well as up does not apply to you.

The UK even gave a loan and made a nice profit on the interest to allow the Irish taxpayer to give their pension schemes etc. a nice high return on turned out to be a no risk investment at all. You lose, you still win. Somebody else ponies up.

The other thing we noticed the last few times we were in Greece was an increasing reliance on cash, with cards not being accepted. With a culture of tax evasion, as well as legitimate avoidance (the reason why so many houses are not "finished", with the the metal rods still sticking out was because you didn't need to pay taxes on the house until it was finished I believe that loophole has been closed ), that will make it even more difficult for the government to collect taxes due.

The Greeks we talked to understood this and that it was a large part of the problem - but at the same time didn't want to pay more tax than the next guy To be fair, the other reason for preferring cash was that the government was placing restrictions on withdrawing cash, so being paid in cash meant that at least they had cash to use.

"No really there is one country with all the power, who is it?"

I honestly think that if the 27 Eu countries were unhappy about any power distribution they'd just exit. Instead countries are lining up keen to be admitted to the EU and the EU is mostly seen as an empowering relationship for all involved.

EU = Win win.

Brexit = Shooting yourself in the foot.

Hard Brexit = Criminal callousness that will result in poverty and misery not seen since WW2. In the UK. Not in the EU

I think the Con's and DUP are happy that everyone is concentrating on the money. Keeps people away from the other stuff. Probably unwritten. Con's say the DUP are like them on security and extremism. Well there have been connections before, I believe. So the terror squads and the collusion with loyalist paramilitaries (these type of people are usually called terrorists by the Cons and DUP) won't see the light of day. They just don't like paramilitarism or terrorism which is not in their interests. Not against it per se.

They keep people talking about the 1 billion and say how it for all the people of NI.

"No really there is one country with all the power, who is it"

I think that is why a lot of people voted leave. They wanted one country to have all the power and that country to be the UK. Don't want this partnership nonsense. The UK was a leader, the head of an empire. A woman on QT said that 'Britain were up there for centuries, the best and this being part of something didn't work' to paraphrase. Maybe most British people look at the EU and think there is something wrong with it because the UK wasn't exalted to be first among equals?

Soz, getting snarky now. All that is happening would drive you to distraction, though. And Gove is back on as a gov't minister.

Speaking (upthread) of John Major ...

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/823514/Theresa-May-European-Parliament-Juncker-Major-Kohl

JOHN Major and Theresa May arrived together to attend the European Parliament's tribute to late Helmut Kohl - and social media couldn't help but interpret their cold body language.

(contd)

Agree MsTREWQ

The UK was a leader, the head of an empire.

which, annoyingly, ironically, and potentially dangerously, most people know fuck all about. Especially the nastier bits where British soldiers were gunning down woman and children, for example.

It's telling that when Obama made some mild comments about his ancestors experience of the British Empire, there was no attempt on the part of his (very vocal) critics to actually educate themselves about it.

And who did the Empire benefit ? It certainly wasn't the ordinary men and women of this country who died and suffered for it.

Yep
Google Drogheda
Or amritsar

The EU is fast becoming an Empire too. I love stirring you all up!. If we were no value to the EU they would not have let us join their elite club. I believe we do have a value to them but they aren't going to let anyone know that. As for leaving the EU for other countries they realise like we are now realising it is almost impossible without being badly damaged. All the rules regs etc entwined within the EU were put there pacifically for that purpose. You wanna join our elite club? Fine as long as you have something we want but, if you think you can leave when it's not so much to your advantage then you have another think coming. Once in, never out because we will lock the door behind you.

Germany is simply loving this situation.

I believe we do have a value to them but they aren't going to let anyone know that
Other than all the times they've actually said it directly

The EU is fast becoming an Empire too.
I fully agree with you there.

The issue was that the UK felt it didn't have enough power/influence within that system and that didn't suit it. So it preferred to go for it alone.

This is actually very well described in this book by Chomsky.
The book is more about the US but actually it describes very well what is happening in the UK just right now (and the huge schism between what the politics are doing and what the population wants). It explains WHY we are now leaving the EU, the slow but very sure movement to full deregulation (and no the people who died in Grenfell do not matter - even for £5k more profit).
I think that one of the reason the uk was finally accepted by the eu (NOT welcomed. It had to ask several times to be able to get through and France was VERY reluctant to do so saying that the U.K. Would be a hindrance to the development of the eu - which it was) is because it wasmputting the UK under the wings of the eu rather than the US, which was, politically, better. (Same thing happened with Eastern countries vs Russia).
We are talking about zones of influence there....

The reason why the EU would still prefer the UK to be part of the EU is the risk that the US will use the UK as an American army base (like they have done in Japan to keep an eye on China). See what happened with Guantanamo and the movement of 'prisoners' going through the UK to arrive there....
Whereas the UK still see itself as close to the US, but not the EU (historical reasons, culture difference etc).

Ive actually come to the conclusion that nothing about Brexit is about the economy or sovereignty etc... its about the elite and whoever owns the money being able to do whatever they want. The EU was a hindrance to that.

Oh well Red now EU can progress without us hindering it. And yes fully agree about those that have the money can do what they want more out of the EU.
According to most people on here Britain is worth nothing, never was, useless country that none wants to know, everyone laughs at us, isn't great in any shape and form. Blah blah blah. Well I value Britain, am British before being a European always and still adore our green and pleasant land. And all those men and women who died in the war didn't die for nothing because they gave all the freedom to air your opinions even if it may sometimes be derogratory remarks about this country.

" I believe we do have a value to them but they aren't going to let anyone know that"

The benefits to us and to the EU27 (even at the region or industry level) of being in the EU are not some sort of hidden secret, they can be calculated using input/output tables and other economic data that are freely available. To summarise, other than London (which is a global city and will therefore suffer less than other regions), the impact of even a soft Brexit is many times greater for the UK regions and industries than it is for the EU27 regions and industries. Everyone in government (here and in the EU27) knows this, they are choosing not to mention it for their own purposes.

Yep get that Missmoon, knew that long before referendum and as Tories are well renowned as money worshippers know it will be to their advantage.
Those 60% that want European passports will want to relinquish everything British too I take it? You know those pesky things like free NHS and pensions accrued cos I'm sure the grass being greener in Europe these things will be much better there so you won't need anything British at all?

Is that a dog whistle I hear?