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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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DividedKingdom · 28/06/2017 14:16

Excellent top comment on that blog link, Just

"Redwood is in meltdown because he's smelling the coffee spread sheet Phil is brewing"
Smile

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 14:16

Apparently the government is considering forming a new body to deal with EU citizens rights in this country to appease the EU. Just on Skye news.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 14:28

Apparently the government is considering forming a new body to deal with EU citizens rights in this country to appease the EU. Just on Sky news.

I wonder how many milliDUPs that will cost ?

Ultimately it can't be subservient to the UK parliament though, otherwise we are back at square one.

The Great British Public are getting a glimpse at how untrusted the UK is abroad.

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 14:41

The more I learn about what is really going on politically the more I am despairing for this country. This government has just got to go. I feel do useless!

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 14:44

That's an interesting advert that MN have up there, linking to a story about millennials in the Torygraph.

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 28/06/2017 14:46

I never get news in that top advert space, only ads related to things I have been searching. At the moment it's all hotels as I'm trying to book a holiday!

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 14:49

I've been feeling frustrated as well sos. Apart from trying to keep as informed as possible, what can we do? My MP is in a very safe Tory seat and not someone that will pay attention to non-Tory voters and I want to take action but I'm at a loss as to what to actually do.

Answers on a postcard would be much appreciated.

howabout · 28/06/2017 14:51

Re school day compression there is another thread running. This has been standard practice in some areas of Scotland for a while. The Scottish posters on the other thread are mainly positive about it.

I think it is not a bad thing that people are starting to unpick education from childcare in the school funding debate. My major concern regarding extensions to early years childcare, for working parents only, is that it will come at the expense of 15 hours high quality educational input for all.

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 14:53

Same here pain my counties always blue. No hope if labour or even lib dem here. Another report I read today that the social mobility gap will take 80 years to close. Well that's my dgcs future up the spout!

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 14:56

The 4 high schools in my town who are all on special measures finish on a Wednesday at 1 pm for enrichment. The only enrichment I see these kids do is smoke in the street and stand around in large groups.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 14:58

MN has adverts ?

teaandbiscuitsforme · 28/06/2017 15:03

howabout IMO the 15 hours has been so chronically underfunded that it's amazing what practitioners have been able to do with the ridiculous resources provided. 30 hours? The vast majority just won't be able to offer it.

As a teacher, the compressed Friday sounds like a great idea to me. So many primary teachers have to waste their PPA time dealing with their class who are misbehaving for whichever low grade member of staff has been put in with them because management are cutting costs. (Not the member of staff's fault!!) I'd love my PPA time with no kids in school, we'd get far more done. However, as a parent, one day finishing early sounds problematic!

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 15:07

That's an interesting advert that MN have up there
It's funny who the Corbyn kids are. A lot of them are torygraph children. Scaring their torygraph parents. Particularly the dads. Grin
"Something is happening and you don't know what it is, do you Mr Jones"

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 15:11

Teaandbiscuits in my LA, the rate of the 15 hours is £4/hour. We usually charge £5.50 an hour, when not funded. It's a big difference and I'm not sure how the sector is going to be able to provide high quality early education on such a shoe-string.

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 15:12

The school cuts website on mn thread before the election was a pretty good vote winner for labour.

Once people saw the number of teachers and TAs to be fired from their local school, alongside cuts in school days, a few more pennies began to drop.

What about the old 'loco parentis' duty of care of schools during school hours? Tort again?

If Grenfell is leading the way to a corporate/gross negligence manslaughter action, who will be liable for accident and injury befalling students whose parents are legally obliged to have them in school, when the school shuts half a day a week?

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 15:13

The advert on top of this page at the moment is for first response......do I feel a pregnant pause coming?

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 15:13

Now its persil!

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 15:29

What about the old 'loco parentis' duty of care of schools during school hours? Tort again?

I find myself idly wondering if sending your kids to an LA school is a statutory defence to whatever the charge is of not educating them properly ?

If it isn't, how long before someone takes their LA to court ? And how quickly will the minority Tory government rush through retrospective legislation making it legal ?

RedPeppers · 28/06/2017 15:46

Ive often had an ad for the Labour Party actually Smile. But just shoes atm...

Pain things on my list to try an de out pressure

  • contact local MP (who is now labour) reminding him that 1- I (well DH) voted labour but NOT for Brexit, even a soft one and 2- that I would appreciate of he attended all the votes as they will CRUCIAL in the coming months - re NHS, education, Brexit, etc etc
  • contact Labour Party to remind them my vote was NOT a agreement for Brexit
  • for me, contact my French MP and MEP to ask them to think about us and do something to protect our rights.
RedPeppers · 28/06/2017 15:48

I would say that any type of involvement is better than nothing. Even if it's 'sharing information' on FB and Twitter, contact your MP etc...

Worth remembering that not all Tory MP are actually pro a hard Brexit (or brexit at all) even though TM has tried hard to ensure that those elected were more likely to support her. I think it's worth reminding them of the impact of Brexit on businesses, asking them they are going to deal with xxx etc...

Cailleach1 · 28/06/2017 15:49

So the UK are going to have to replicate the EMA's regulatory framework. At extra cost. Or just rubberstamp. Where does that fit in with recalls or product defects? Counterfeit medicine?

"Mr Hatswell said if the UK left the EMA, it would then have a choice: significantly expand its domestic regulator and slide down towards the bottom of the queue for new drugs or simply “rubber stamp” decisions made by the EMA without having any input into them."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-life-saving-drugs-access-catastrophic-effect-healthcare-treatment-expert-ema-mhra-a7810896.html

Strange wording. "If the UK left the EMA." Well the EMA is leaving the EU. Decision being made on location in Autumn. The MHRA are a very good regulatory body. Their expertise will be missed, I suspect. Initially, anyway.

Cailleach1 · 28/06/2017 15:50

The EMA is leaving the UK. Not the EU.

Cailleach1 · 28/06/2017 15:55

On the BBC news yesterday, it showed the EU handing a fine to Google. Yet it went to New York for analysis. And the person being interviewed form NY said she didn't know about it. I suspect if they went to Brussels for analysis, there would only be one of 20 people who they could ask. Farage or one of the UKIP MEP's. There must be nobody else on the planet to ask about the EU's decision.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 16:06

- contact local MP (who is now labour)

June 9th, I used www.writetothem.com/ to contact my new MP (who replaced the superlatively useless Gisela Stuart) and let her know that my vote was not for Brexit, and should not be taken for granted when the next election comes.

I urge people to use that site to make contact, as it helpfully keeps an eye on your email, with the result that two weeks later it sent me an email asking if I had received a reply. Which I hadn't. So it helps build up statistics on whether your MP is doing their job.

In Preets defence, when the original email was sent, I got a reply from WriteToThem advising that new MPs can take a while to respond as they need to have email addresses assigned and deal with the general admin of a new job. So I'm prepared to be patient.

Hopefully the more people who do this - irrespective of their Brexit views - we can get some better quality thinking into the mix.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 16:11

Thanks redpeppers, will continue boring everyone I know about the sad state of our politics and won't feel as guilty about it!

Unfortunately my Tory mp is Dominic Raab, so someone who is very set on pursuing a "hard Brexit".