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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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Sostenueto · 27/06/2017 19:25

Wouldn't a combined court for EU nationals give them protection and this country a say in the rulings? Just use this court for EU nationals?

pointythings · 27/06/2017 19:27

We need some form of international oversight post Brexit, that's for damn sure, sostenueto.

I also don't think they've thought through the whole 'if you leave for two years, that's it, you can't come back'. What is you are an EU national, working for a UK company, and you get posted overseas for 2 years? Can you then not come back? Or would that be considered 'strong ties' to the UK? This is all going to need hammering out. It's a gigantic mess.

Sheffiedl · 27/06/2017 19:34

Still awaiting my citizenship and was pondering Kafka this afternoon. I came across this article by Eric Lonergan, which I loved.

Brexit: everyone got it wrong

It is often forgotten that it is not economists who predict the future, but novelists. In this instance, only the great Czech novelist, Franz Kafka, correctly predicted Brexit. In The Castle, the protagonist, named ‘K’, embarks on a never-ending bureaucratic process seeking citizenship from the distant castle. It is ultimately impenetrable. Towards the end, K finally receives second-class status. The letter arrives the day after he dies. Kafka himself died before finishing the novel.

Imagine Kafka is an economist, and this is his tale:

An economy is thriving, or at least on some measures it is close to full employment. There is national angst about many things, some real and some fictitious: the distribution of wealth, the burden of monstrous financial errors being placed on the poor, and the imminent invasion of bellicose foreigners from a distant land.

One group of elitist bureaucrats blames the woes on another faction of the domestic bureaucratic elite, some blame foreign elitist bureaucrats, who tend to patronise them in recognisable but alien accents. In an attempt to settle the dispute once and for all, the elite turns to the population: let them decide. The team with the best jokes wins. The population votes to leave the big, foreign, castle, for its smaller local one.

Well, it’s a Kafka story, so Leave means embarking on an endless process of trying to leave, never knowing whether or not you achieve it. Even when you die.

www.philosophyofmoney.net/brexit-everyone-got-it-wrong/

QuentinSummers · 27/06/2017 19:39

Just sole matting
(Geddit? Grin)

boldlygoingsomewhere · 27/06/2017 19:43

That Kafka article is brilliant! Captures the whole, surreal, sorry mess.

JunefromAccounts · 27/06/2017 19:47

.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 19:51

Thanks as always for a very topical OP, red Flowers

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 19:53

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/27/british-citizens-living-eu-fear-they-will-become-mays-sacrificial-lambs?CMP=share_btn_tw
British citizens living in EU fear they will become May's 'sacrificial lambs'

“If May wants to be ‘fair and serious’, she should just agree quickly to everything the EU has already proposed. We are merely asking to maintain the status quo, with no degradation of our rights – it’s not a matter of generosity but of justice,” said Sue Wilson, chair of Bremain in Spain, which is campaigning on behalf of an estimated 300,000 Britons living in the country.

“If she is proposing to limit rights and freedoms in any way, then we deserve to know which of those rights she is prepared to sacrifice,” added Wilson.

British in Europe, a coalition representing 11 UK citizens’ groups across Europe, said it was worried that British citizens in Europe were being ignored in the rush for new immigration rules for EU citizens coming to the UK.

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BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 19:58

Summatising from last thread what I want as a minimum for all fellow expats:

  • unlimited right to remain, including spouse and kids. That means the right to work or study abroad and return to the UK.
  • retaining same pension terms & conditions as natives
  • same healthcare t&c
  • same welfare & benefit entitlement after say 3 years self-supporting
  • is acceptable to most people in the RoI or NI

I personally think a residence card is ok provided:

  • the application form requires just basic information about the citizen, not some trivia quiz show
  • It can be done locally and easily e.g. at local council office, as in Germany - no traveling hundreds of miles
  • It is cheap and simple, at least should cost no more than a passport (preferably much less, to avoid complexity and another expensive UK IT disaster !)
  • no language test or requirement (or e.g. the pensioners in Spain are screwed)
Sostenueto · 27/06/2017 20:06

Seems reasonable to me bigchoc.

MangoSplit · 27/06/2017 20:08

Place marking

Sheffiedl · 27/06/2017 20:17

+ retaining same pension terms & conditions as natives

I would want to be able to retire and access my pension either in the UK or my native country.

I don't want to somehow not be allowed to access my pension just because I have moved back to Germany at age 50 / 60 etc.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 27/06/2017 20:21

Thanks Red for the threads, also placemat king

woman12345 · 27/06/2017 20:25

Great OP and thanks as ever RedToothBrush

DividedKingdom · 27/06/2017 20:28

The pension issues...the important point for a lot of people is the aggregation of eligibility years from x-EU employment (which currently exists) to reach the 10 year minimum contribution years demanded by the UK before paying out any state pension. Parliament were informed in some detail about this in a briefing paper circa August 2016 so they have no excuses for not addressing this...

DividedKingdom · 27/06/2017 20:30

BigChoc that EU/expat proposal sounds sensible and fair to me too.

woman12345 · 27/06/2017 20:33

If it is matching season I can think of some deserted islands I'd like to match the Brexiteers and DUP with.

Artisanjam · 27/06/2017 20:35

Thank you Red

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 20:47

sheffield UK and German nationals can currently access a pension in their home country if they move abroad. I don't know if that holds for all the E27.

So you are right: we may need more than "Equal rights with natives" to ensure that those with a pension earned in another country can access it.

The obvious thing is to harmonize upwards, so,every citizen has the right to access their pension in any E27 country or the UK

sos My wishes would mean one privilege for E27 expats compared to Uk natives, as we discussed :
the right of spouse and kids to remain - that includes when they are of non-EU nationality.
This is vital because people planned their lives many years ago, never i,aginingbtheir family could be split by Brexit.

We need harmonization upwards here too:
so cruel that UK families with non-EU spouses and kids are split up Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 20:58

Before the referendum, I was informed by the Uk and German authorities of the DU rules:

  • state pensions from 2 or more countries are combined by the state in which you are resident and they pay out the combined amount when you reach pensIon age.
  • health care at that age would be free, refunded by the country of which one is a citizen

In my case, this would mean UK state pension at age 66 (I have the 35 years for full amount) then at age 67 (German pension age) both Uk and my portion of the German state pension
(I have 3 private pensions too)

Also that at pension age, I can stop private health insurance and use the German state system, with full costs refunded by the UK.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 20:58

EU rules

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 20:58

This is a significant article from Sunday's Times about the implications for the nuclear industry.

Britiain's Brexit plan will plunge its nuclear power plants, cancer treatment centres and leading research facilities into chaos within two years, according to a secret government assessment.

See article for the rest

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
OP posts:
woman12345 · 27/06/2017 20:58

May and those brexit fools are doing wonders for the SNP. She's given NS a good 'out' for indy ref 2. She's upped the labour lead to double digits. The EU27 are more united than ever.

Timing is all for when these benefits are cashed in. The tories won't get another sniff at power for generations, in fact they probably won't exist as a national party in a year.

Peregrina · 27/06/2017 21:03

Timing is all for when these benefits are cashed in. The tories won't get another sniff at power for generations, in fact they probably won't exist as a national party in a year.

I hope you are right, but am not counting any chickens yet. I hope Brexit is abandoned, or so watered down that we might as well not have bothered to waste the time and money on it. However, if it destroys the current form of Tory party, some would regard it as money well spent.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 21:06

I posted before that the consequences of leaving Euratom are very grave, because there will be a gap before even essential functions can be legally performed in the UK.

There are many other agencies where this is the case, but none quite as serious afaik for our power supply or for cancer treatment.

Then there is the problem with permissions for air travel to other countries
To anywhere, not just the EU
It's not just holidays affected, but business travel, international post and packages ....

Probably a few buried bombs that no one has thought of, even Barnier and co, that will explode in our faces around Brexit time.