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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 18:46

I thought Anna Soubry made some excellent points:

mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/879665164307640320/video/1

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 18:51

Yet again another great female politician sidelined by the 'you know what' thanks for posting pain

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 18:58

Anna Soubry. Great points. She almost sounds like someone who'd vote against her own party on Brexit bills. With Ken? Tories sliver-thin majority looking dicey. (Wishful thinking?)

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 19:00

I think it's too optimistic but she's not afraid of bringing up inconvenient issues:

amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/rudd-row-nhs-charging-woman-from-northern-ireland-for-abortions-in-england

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 19:16

A member of the public not afraid to speak truth to power. The Tory MP pretty much acknowledges under pressure that the 1 DUP would not have been given to NI without the need for the DUP votes:

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154726164781547&id=283348121682053

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 19:17

The UK net budget contributions are only 0.7% of UK GDP
It would be an even lower % of Germany's GDP
More likely to be split among the 10 wealthiest E27 members - it really is not an important sum for the EU.

There is always vigorous debate whenever the EU do their new budget, but we can expect the Breixters to take that as a sign of the imminent collapse they are praying for (to excuse the economic downturn in the UK)

BiglyBadgers · 28/06/2017 19:28

The labour amendment to stop the cap on public sector pay has been defeated by 14 votes. I am at all not surprised, but am glad that labour put it forward as it clearly demonstrates that the Tories have not listened at all voters concerns. It is another thing to cement labour's growing popularity by placing them in clear opposition to a Tory party stuck in the ideological pit of austerity.

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 19:36

Disappointed but knew labour wouldn't get it through. Vince Cable talking now about education cuts and none there to listen. Anyone hear the Home Secretary AR say the police force is stretched with terrorist investigations and people ought to stop demonstrating naming the rage demo so police don't have to be in attendence. She is turning g into Hitler2 what with be patriotic and don't demonstrate! And we won't know how many people died in Grenfell till the end of the year???? Is this a developed country???

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 19:36

Defeated by 14 votes. So the DUP can be blamed directly now.

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BiglyBadgers · 28/06/2017 19:40

Absolutely red. This is what that 1DUP has paid for.

On the bright side lots of stories and comment on the apparent war between May and Hammond after the confusion over whether the Tories would reconsider pay cap or not. General chaos exposed, even the telegraph is in on it.

Tory austerity policy in chaos as Number 10 does 'U-turn on a U-turn' over public sector pay cap
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/28/tory-austerity-policy-chaos-number-10-does-u-turn-u-turn-public/amp/

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 19:56

David Allen Green @davidallengreen

This is golden, from 2007.

Theresa May on Gordon Brown's first six months as PM: conservativehome.blogs.com/columnists/2007/12/theresa-may-mp.html

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 19:56

The whole hung parliament voting thing is going to be interesting. Whips will be busy.
So with my useful CommonsVotes app, I discover that 6 Lab and 4 Tory MPs didn't vote today. (Speakers are part of those numbers? I dunno.)
So do the whips have an idea how many MPs on the other are being allowed not to vote, and therefore how hard they have work on their own members? Or are they in the dark, trying to get everyone in, in case the opposition ALL vote?

whatwouldrondo · 28/06/2017 20:00

I have posted this before but to add to the earlier debate in this outer London borough, which by the way in common with others has had a 40% increase in the number of 11 year olds between 2012 and 2017, and counting, the cuts have fallen out of all proportion to need on the schools that serve areas of deprivation and high levels of ESL, SEN, BME, FSM. So a school in an affluent, and most definitely Tory voting area, loses 2 teachers, a faith school in a middle class, possibly a tad Libdem area, loses 4 but the school that serves an area of deprivation with high levels of need, loses 6 (and we are talking a level of need on a par with any area of London, which means some of the worst in the country, issues with drugs, gangs etc. and yes there are three tower blocks with lovely modern primary coloured cladding, couple of holes in that at the moment). All are outstanding but that would be less of a challenge with the extremely motivated parent body of the first two schools. That is why Vince Cable is up highlighting the issue for all parents in the borough.......

mybrainhurtsalot · 28/06/2017 20:12

That looks like such a cool app, Hester. I guess the whips on both sides must know about at least some of the absences as they sort out the pairing system.

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 20:15

Andy Burnham‏*@AndyBurnhamGM*
So, a special deal is done for public services in NI. In return, their MPs block help for public servants in England. How can that be right?

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 20:17

So public service workers can thank the DUP for continuation of their pay cap Hmm

So much for the DUP supposedly being on the left economically - not when they are paid enough.
Clearly an alliance with the Tories, not just confidence and supply arrangement.

whatwouldrondo · 28/06/2017 20:23

And in my capacity as poster of "meanwhile in South East Asia" this Guardian video puts a bit of meat on the bones of pains earlier posting on Chris Patten speaking out about the UK's naivety in dealing with China which will only get worse with Brexit imposed desperation "assuming if you do not bow low enough that you will never do business with China again, the evidence for which is to put it mildly, thin on the ground". Naivety is the wrong word, it is downright ignorance and stupidity. I thought Cameron and Osbourne were bad but anyone who knows anything about China trade is just cringing at the thought of May and her Brexiteers being in charge. Being a bloody difficult woman will be music to the ears of the Chinese, I would bet not one of them has read the art of war, well Boris probably has but wasn't concentrating. For starters "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” Lots more where that came from www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3200649-s-nzi-b-ngf

Tonight the 20 of the rather geeky activists he highlights who would bring out the mother in most mumsnetters, aside from Anson Chan who is another motherhen are chained to a model of the Bauhinia flower, symbol of Hong Kong, on the Wanchai water front surrounded by 400 HK police, in a protest ahead of Xi's visit to try and own the commemoration of the handover.

I am rapidly dividing the Tories into the honourable ones, Patten, Clarke, Heseltine and the others. Anna Soubrey is in good company. How many more of the 317 are not with the 63 whats app shyster brexiteers?

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 20:25

the Tories have not listened at all voters concerns. It is another thing to cement labour's growing popularity

Yep bigly won't be long now.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 20:27

Hester With a hung parliament, the Opposition may choose to abandon the usual "pair" system, so that all the Tory MPs need to be present for each vote

  • that will really make life difficult for the govt, stress its MPs and curtail the usual "fact-finding" paid jaunts to exotic foreign locations.

I remember in previous govts, without a reliable majority, ministers had to be rushed back from trips abroad, because every vote counted.

If the Opposition parties are sensible, they will be coordinating their efforts, also keeping quiet about the votes on which they'll make maximum effort.
Sometimes it's very obvious, of course, when it's something Labour fundamentally opposes, or a really good chance to embarrass the govt.

BiglyBadgers · 28/06/2017 20:31

Just downloaded that commons votes app. Very exciting.... Possibly I should get out more Grin

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 20:37

Patten was certainly on the good geezer side in Hong Kong. I remember speaking to very concerned Hong Kong residents in 1989 about coming changes........... he just liked Hong Kong.

Could you re post the 'should go out more commons vote app'? thanks bigly

TheColdDoesBotherMeAnyway · 28/06/2017 20:38

Yes thanks for that app recommendation. I'm pleased to see that my MP (lab) has voted as I would. I shall we watching it closely over the next few days I think!

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 20:50

Yes it's a good app. The only thing I haven't worked out is how to find out exactly which MPs did not vote.

Thanks for explaining pairing Bigchoc. I thought it wouldn't be in the opposition's interests to let the Tories know how many of them would not be voting/ could 'pair'. (If they want to win a vote at all.)

BiglyBadgers · 28/06/2017 20:53

It's called commonsvotes woman. I found it in Google play for android. I don't know about apple. Hester mentioned it and it is indeed super fun. Grin