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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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DividedKingdom · 02/07/2017 18:34

Hashi bonus fun fact for you: German Shepherd Dogs are almost all immune to dog whistles. I guess they just don't give a fuck because they know they're the best and can do what the hell they want Grin

HashiAsLarry · 02/07/2017 18:40

@leaveeuofficial
Happy 150th birthday to our Canadian friends. One of the many great Commonwealth countries we can re-engage once we leave the EU! #Canada150
@iandunt
Canada has a free trade deal with the EU.

The state of this lot. Really.

Very interesting divided. Quite a metaphor for the brits dog whistling and the German ignoring it Grin

7Days · 02/07/2017 18:50

Don't think so Sos.
Of course UK can leave. But every joint venture they had with EU27 will be terminated and new ventures set up. Not on the same terms of course, otherwise you'd have Uzbekistan and Angola wanting the cushy bits of being in the EU but not the compromises.

frumpety · 02/07/2017 18:58

For you Sos

MsTREWQ · 02/07/2017 19:00

"And all those men and women who died in the war didn't die for nothing because they gave all the freedom to air your opinions even if it may sometimes be derogratory remarks about this country."

I think history will show that those among us who criticise the current awful government and especially the entire ludicrous process of Brexit from the referendum through to the final fuck up result are the true patriots if you were.

And that those who blindly follow empty patriotic rhetoric without looking at the facts and the actual real situation we are in globally and within the EU will be seen as the traitors. Future school children will have to answer exam questions on how the British people could be so fooled into walking into their own demise.

frumpety · 02/07/2017 19:03

just because it is fantastic song ......... Grin

Gumpendorf · 02/07/2017 19:04

Those 60% that want European passports will want to relinquish everything British too I take it? You know those pesky things like free NHS and pensions accrued cos I'm sure the grass being greener in Europe these things will be much better there so you won't need anything British at all?

Sos, I already have a European passport and I don't want to give it up. It's not a binary choice. It's part of valuing being part of a community.

And while I'm at it, I've paid handsomely for the NHS and my accrued pension over the years.

One more thing, celebrating the war as if it will get us through the privations of Brexit is just plain daft as my late mother would say. It's that kind of thinking that got us into this mess.

MsTREWQ · 02/07/2017 19:09

"Ive actually come to the conclusion that nothing about Brexit is about the economy or sovereignty etc... its about the elite and whoever owns the money being able to do whatever they want. The EU was a hindrance to that."

I agree with this. It's the only explanation that actually makes sense.

"The issue was that the UK felt it didn't have enough power/influence within that system and that didn't suit it. So it preferred to go for it alone."
This FEELING was of course fostered by the Britsih media. And having mainly UKIP MEPs who didn't actually represent our interest within the EU at all whilst still enjoying the salary that came with their roles certainly didn't help.

Sos I must have missed that picture of your daughter's puppy that you promised at the begin of this thread Sad. Did you end up posting it? Could definitely do with something cute and cuddly to take my mind of this Brexit misery.

frumpety · 02/07/2017 19:12

Sorry , will pootle off to the other thread for a bit of a Stevie Nicks love in Blush

prettybird · 02/07/2017 19:25

Don't think anyone here is saying the UK is rubbish - it's just that we don't look at the Empire with rose tinted spectacles.

Yes, the Empire made a few people very rich - but those riches were not distributed evenly. That's before you even start on some of the exploitation and atrocities that were perpetrated in the Empire's name, many in an attempt to hang on to said Empire.

As far as I am aware, the EU hasn't threatened any gunboats, invaded or imposed martial law Hmm. In fact, one of its greatest achievements is the peace that Europe has enjoyed. Countries joined the EU voluntarily. They can leave too - but just don't expect the same benefits as being a member.

BigChoc also reminded us a while ago of a little known fact: that the UK was the recipient of the most Marshall Aid. Not Germany, as many people think Shock. However, unlike Germany, who used it to rebuild its economy, infrastructure and set up decent relationships between workers and management to improved productivity (ironically enough, advised by people from the UK if only we'd followed our own advice ), we squandered it on trying to retain our disappearing Empire. SadAngry

It could be argued that Scotland, Wales and NI are the last colonies remnants of a London-based empire.

Unless we can learn from history, we are doomed to repeat mistakes. The world has moved on since we had an empire. We have had influence probably too much while we were a willing member of our nearest trading bloc. We may find the world a lonely place once we are on our own Sad

lalalonglegs · 02/07/2017 19:39

Oh my, I never knew that about Marshall Aid (apologies to BCF for missing that post). What an utterly incredible waste of money Shock.

Sostenueto · 02/07/2017 19:41

How has this conversation turned to the war? I am patriotic because I love my country, not because I look through rose tinted glasses at our history. Our history was awful. I'm talking about present day not past. I only mentioned those that died in war because someone said they died for nothing.
Being patriotic about ones country is not a bad thing. Yes this country has faults but if a third world war came and I was asked to fight I would. Someone has to stick up for this country. Don't knock us patriots we are not all idiots and fools.

Cailleach1 · 02/07/2017 19:52

"And all those men and women who died in the war didn't die for nothing because they gave all the freedom to air your opinions even if it may sometimes be derogatory remarks about this country."

Sos, you had me convinced you were in earnest until this. As far as I can see, most people (including me) had someone who died in one or two of those wars. If those butchered and damned could speak, maybe they'd turn the air blue in their miserable existence and deaths being glorified and used as argument fodder for someone's agenda.

Now, I know you are toying.

prettybird · 02/07/2017 19:52

Why do you think people are not being patriotic when they point out the fatal flaws in what is being proposed? It's because they care about the country that they are concerned.

I am also very patriotic - for my country (Scotland), not the UK. I recognise that there are many Scots who feel differently. However, I do not wish this clusterfuck on the UK, even though it might help the case for Scottish Independence. It will harm too many people - and particularly the people who can least afford it Sad - and from what you've said previously, that includes you Sos Sad

As Theresa May said herself in the White Paper that was eventually produced (at least in the Indyref, it was produced in advance of the vote, so that people had an idea of at least the general principles of what they were voting for), we hadn't ever really lost sovereignty - it was just that we felt like we had egged on by the likes of the Daily Mail

frumpety · 02/07/2017 19:56

According to most people on here Britain is worth nothing, never was, useless country that none wants to know, everyone laughs at us, isn't great in any shape and form. Blah blah blah. Well I value Britain, am British before being a European always and still adore our green and pleasant land. And all those men and women who died in the war didn't die for nothing because they gave all the freedom to air your opinions even if it may sometimes be derogratory remarks about this country.

Sos the reason why people are still railing against the referendum is because they do absolutely bloody love this country , you daft bint !

Cailleach1 · 02/07/2017 19:56

Is that the Boer War too? A few other agenda's were played out in that. Incarceration of people in camps too.

The most miserable thing is that rearmament was great for men who wanted to be shod, clothed and fed regularly.

Cailleach1 · 02/07/2017 20:07

And most of the casualties in those wars were not British by a long stretch. A lot of the monuments on the continent depict the misery and suffering of the wars. On civilians too. I remember when I was in France as a youngster. I was staying with a family, learning french. There was a day where they commemorated all the young men of the village being brought and shot in retaliation for something. When we were in Crete, there was long memory of when all the people in the top part of the village had all been taken out and shot too. They don't seem to twist use it in the same way as some in the UK.

Sostenueto · 02/07/2017 20:10

Well then finally someone has said it! Thanks frumpetyFlowers. Now I thoroughly wound you all up I shall wave tattybye for a bit. Peace and love to you all.Halo

HashiAsLarry · 02/07/2017 20:10

An old favourite

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
MsTREWQ · 02/07/2017 20:24

Sostenueto Please don't go without sharing a pic of your dc's puppy, pretty please?

DividedKingdom · 02/07/2017 20:29

Also, this country is not exactly renowned for linguistic prowess when compared to our gifted continental cousins...so yes, it would have surely been another struggle Wink

woman12345 · 02/07/2017 20:31

DividedKingdom Grin didn't even have an English 'language' until the Germans, French and Romans gave us one.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 02/07/2017 20:35

Woman - ahem, there are surviving native Celtic languages (Welsh, Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic). Breton is also related to Welsh. We 'got by' just fine before the Romans, no need for grunting & pointing. Wink

Cailleach1 · 02/07/2017 20:38

Well, yes Ms. Quite. The toying wrt the state of the country politically can be put down to a robust exploration of issues.

But a promise to post a picture of a puppy and not do it. That would not be remembered kindly!

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