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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 08:38

oops, autocorrect Enda Kenny

StainlessSteelButtercup · 28/06/2017 08:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 08:42

Their racism is noted. Looks a bit old fashioned and desperate. I think that might be partly why they got decimated a few weeks ago. They just look like a bunch of alf garnetts. < for our older posters Grin>

Tories are finished. Smile We are now at the death rattle stage.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 09:03

Commented on the "DUP" as a measure of currency to my (US based) brother. He replied "That makes Crossrail about 7 DUPs then."

WorshipTheGourd · 28/06/2017 09:31

Thanks, Red
Sheffield the Kafka link is brilliant and very timely. I love his work.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 28/06/2017 09:37

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/28/paid-leave-vote-funding-brexit-public-inquiry

Interesting article by George Monbiot

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 09:46

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/28/leicestershire-school-plans-four-and-a-half-day-teaching-week?CMP=twt_gu

This is shocking (but also foretold and flagged up awhile ago so it shouldn't really be). Cuts in real terms leading to a school no longer being able to provide teaching on a Friday afternoon.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 09:54

Cuts in real terms leading to a school no longer being able to provide teaching on a Friday afternoon.

Of course, if a parent kept their kid off school for half a day, they'd be prosecuted.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 09:55

Meanwhile ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40426747/luftwaffe-ace-flies-in-spitfire

QuentinSummers · 28/06/2017 10:18

just I read this linked article a while back and it's scary.
I feel like our democracy has been hijacked and everyone's just pretending it didn't happen. Really wish our politicians would grow some muscle and stop Brexit

www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

RedPeppers · 28/06/2017 10:34

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/28/paid-leave-vote-funding-brexit-public-inquiry

An article along the same lines quentin

I'm happy to sall that coming out because we all know the ISIS that there was with the campaign.
I wish this had come it earlier.
But I welcome any doubt ab the pros and how democratic (or NOT) it has been.
'THe will the people' is always used when actually the decision taken is nowhere near representing what people want.

RedPeppers · 28/06/2017 10:39

Pain what happens is what we can see on a very recent thread on here where parents are asked to pay for lots of activities/a bit each week/school fair etc etc etc to a non negligeable amount (that OP was talking about £180 in 2~3 months?) because the school can't cope.

In our area, the cuts means that our local primary is loosing one teaching post. In a school that is full (30 children per class) and has only 1 class per year group.
How are they supposed to organise things so that they still have a tecaher for each child?
Thats wo talking about SN issues and 1-1....

Mrsmartell08 · 28/06/2017 10:51

My son's secondary is losing £180k by 2019...
Which is 4 teachers.
I have noticed that we are being asked for much more money compared to previous years..

Somerville · 28/06/2017 10:54

I wish more schools rwponded to the cuts by shortening their hours actually. Because it would cause (rightful) uproar amongst parents who have to alter work patterns to fit, and it would expose the lie of 'we constantly invest more in education'.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 10:54

My son's secondary is losing £180k by 2019...Which is 4 teachers. I have noticed that we are being asked for much more money compared to previous years..

Move to Northern Ireland ?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 10:59

My DC's school has asked that we set up direct debits (of voluntary contributions) of £15 per month per child. We're in quite a well-heeled part of Surrey so I'd expect the school receives enough to keep going in this particular case but it's very unfair that it's come to this at all - all children deserve a good education, not just those that live in more affluent areas. It's a very sad state of affairs and one that once again affects those who are economically vulnerable disproportionately.

It also runs the risk that parents feel entitled to more. I was chatting to another school Mum and she said she didn't mind paying the money but that she hoped that it would mean parents had more of a say on the curriculum Shock. I told her that it was very, very unlikely to be the case and she eventually saw that it would be fairly unworkable but it feels like we're semi-privatising some schools by stealth.

DividedKingdom · 28/06/2017 11:09

I wish more schools rwponded to the cuts by shortening their hours actually. Because it would cause (rightful) uproar amongst parents who have to alter work patterns to fit, and it would expose the lie of 'we constantly invest more in education'.

Horribly, I kind of agree with this. I really believe the primary reason this country is in such a mess is because the majority (or very significant %) of the population has been sleepwalking into a pack of lies for 7 years or so; accepting blame of the EU, immigration etc as the cause of their newfound woes without question.

Perhaps a short sharp poke of utter shit that affects them directly and profoundly will awaken them from their slumber...and prompt them to finally hold the government and so-called "democratic process" to account.

And whether anyone likes the idea or not, it's going to happen anyway. Independent article yesterday with interview DRUK (Disability Rights UK) who are worried the Brexit-induced reduction in healthcare staff will render it impossible to maintain home-care for many disabled people, leading to the "solution" of effective institutionalization (as well as reduction in anti-discrimination rights of the disabled etc.). I mean, seriously? WTAF? These are not decisions of a civilized nation (IMHO), yet apparently many people do not care enough about disabled people (or the anguish and stress EU/UKexpat citizens have been subjected to).

Perhaps if they face a real hardship themselves, they'll start to take these issues a little more seriously.

DividedKingdom · 28/06/2017 11:10

Lurking Grin

DividedKingdom · 28/06/2017 11:13

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-disability-rights-care-staff-leave-home-eu-a7805566.html

Article mentioned above. From 3 days ago (not yesterday as I'd previously said).

Mrsmartell08 · 28/06/2017 11:16

LH 😀

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 11:23

Its not just that school in Leicestershire considering a 4 and a half day week:

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/192162/change-four-half-day-week-secondary-schools-angus-approved/
Changes to Angus secondary school week approved

In this case, the half day will be for 'work experience'. With an extra cost of £370,000 to the council to provide school buses... Being launched Aug 2017.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/radical-plans-revealed-reduce-school-11882040
Radical plans revealed to reduce the school week in Wales to four-and-a-half days
The Welsh Government says it is considering a report into benefits of asymmetric school weeks

It follows the publication of a report, commissioned by former Education Minister Huw Lewis , looking at the introduction of ‘asymmetric school weeks’ as a way of raising standards and saving money.

farrprimaryschool.wordpress.com/2017/03/22/4-and-half-day-week-consultation/comment-page-1/
Farr Primary School
Inverness, Scotland

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38692692
Cheshire East schools 'could face four-day week'

Head teachers in West Sussex have made a similar threat to cut school hours because of "dire finances".

Schools in some of the worst-funded areas, including Cheshire East and Trafford, could also lose out.

According to analysis carried out by Cheshire East Council and head teachers in the borough, overall school spending would be cut by 2.1%, taking the basic level of funding per pupil to the lowest in England.

Expanding upon the four-day week idea, Holmes Chapel Comprehensive School head teacher Denis Oliver said he was investigating the possibility of "having children working at home with their teachers online as virtual support, [thereby] saving on heating, lighting, cleaning and transport costs."

It theory I suspect it will hit schools in richer areas first... why is that significant? Because it allows the private sector to move in and then poor areas end up with poorer education in time as rich people are fed the 'undeserving poor' shit and we turn into the US.

My local school is already outside council control. It had been since the 1990s. It worked well - apart from the head who was forced to quit due to bullying and misuse of finances.

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RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 11:25

David Conn‏*@david*_conn
BREAKING: Hillsborough: Six people have been charged with criminal offences, including ex Ch Supt Duckenfield & Sir Norman Bettison.

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RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 11:26

Press Association‏*@PA*

#Breaking Sir Norman Bettison charged with four counts of misconduct in a public office following Hillsborough investigations, CPS says

Misconduct in a public office... interesting...

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RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 11:28

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40419819?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
Ex-Ch Supt David Duckenfield faces Hillsborough manslaughter charge

fleetstreetfox‏*@fleetstreetfox*
6 people charged over #Hillsborough. David Duckenfield facing 95 charges of manslaughter. DO NOT prejudice trial by tweeting unwisely.
Contempt of court is when there is a substantial risk of serious prejudice to a trial, eg by making it impossible for a fair jury trial.
That can include any kind of publication about the case. Twitter is publishing. Unless you have a lawyer to hand, DON'T DO IT. #Hillsborough

So is MN.

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SapphireStrange · 28/06/2017 11:35

Placemat Queen Wink

Thanks Red.