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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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woman12345 · 27/06/2017 21:08

Not only have hospitals no EU and 'foreign' nurses working safely in an anti racist country, but the Euratom debacle could mess up cancer treatments. unf***ingbelievable.

Theresa May forced to intervene as her key Cabinet ministers squabble about Brexit terms
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/27/theresa-may-forced-intervene-key-cabinet-ministers-squabble/
Yep, end of the tories. ^ As well as being morally and intellectually bankrupt, I think their existence is also becoming a demographic impossibility, Peregrina

I wouldn't be surprised if a liberal coalition takes over where the Major, Clarke, Clegg politicians left off.

Peregrina · 27/06/2017 21:13

I would be very happy if a Coalition similar to the war time one came about. There would be no place in it for May, Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove for starters.

Who I would have in? Starmer, Cable, Hammond, not fully sure about Cobyn - better on the stump than leader of the Party, and er, er, well, I am not sure.

RedPeppers · 27/06/2017 21:20

The issue with pensions is an essential one for me too.
Not just being able to get my pensions even if I'm living somewhere else than the UK.

DividedKingdom · 27/06/2017 21:25

Before the referendum, I was informed by the Uk and German authorities of the DU rules:
+ state pensions from 2 or more countries are combined by the state in which you are resident and they pay out the combined amount when you reach pensIon age

This is currently correct. But the payment you receive is actually sourced in separate parts and paid out by the individual countries according to their different payment structures, just combined as one payment for admin purposes.

The issue is thus:

If you have (only) 9 years of contributions in UK, you are entitled to zero state pension, because you must have 10 years minimum to receive anything.

But If you have 9 years UK contributions and, say, 2 years of German contributions (so an extra 2 years compared to the first example), your entitlement increases from zero to 11 years worth of state pension paid out as 9 years from UK and 2 years from German governments respectively (combined again as 1 payment for admin purposes). This is because the UK must treat all EU pension contribution years as valid for the sake of calculating minimum # threshold years. This is the aggregation rule.

The concern laid out in the Parliamentary briefing IIRC was that any UK or EU citizen who had accumulated less than 10 years of pension contributions in the UK (with the assumption that they had also accumulated further # years in a second EU country) would potentially be at risk of losing 100% of their UK state pension if they needed to leave the UK to return to their country of origin within the EU, unless the UK (and the onus is obviously 100% on them!) agreed to continue the aggregation rule.

I haven't heard anything explicit about this during the UK "negotiations" and for many people I would imagine it's quite a big deal.

Possibly they're trying not to publicize the fact that most (all?) EU counties have state pension systems that look after their citizens rather better than the UK. Sshhhhhh Wink

RedPeppers · 27/06/2017 21:33

Of course they are not going to talk about pensions and the aggregation. Because that will cost the uk a lot of money taht they would prefer not to pay. Esp if it's for people who let's say have worked for 8 years in the uk 5 years ago and have then gone back to their home country....

Peregrina · 27/06/2017 21:35

I haven't heard anything explicit about this [pensions] during the UK "negotiations" and for many people I would imagine it's quite a big deal.

I'd not heard of that at all. Yet another thing which is going to be sorted out within two years! The timescale of which I have no confidence in whatever, since it's taken Theresa May 2 weeks to stitch up a deal with the DUP. Her plans for EU citizens look as though they will hit the buffers, despite having had time to work on them.

LotisBlue · 27/06/2017 21:39

Placemarking with this Grin

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 27/06/2017 21:39

I know this was discussed on the last thread but really

John Crace @JohnJCrace
David Davis:'We're not going to introduce ID cards. We're going to introduce cards of identification'. Brilliant

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 21:39

I wouldn't be surprised if a liberal coalition takes over where the Major, Clarke, Clegg politicians left off.

I think it will take a few years, but yes I can see a political realignment on the cards in the same way that the Liberals gave way to the Labour. We shall see if it happens but I do see the potential.

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Peregrina · 27/06/2017 21:48

David Davis:'We're not going to introduce ID cards. We're going to introduce cards of identification'. Brilliant

What does the chump think ID stands for? How about Identity Document? As someone born in 1948, he would have been issued with one. I had one in 1951, which is well and truly lost now, but DH still has his, and it supposedly expired when he was 16, but long abolished by then.

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 21:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40420670
David Davis: Brexit 'as complicated as moon landing'

Some people think the moon landing was faked...

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DividedKingdom · 27/06/2017 21:56

OK, I have found a small update on this issue (updated just yesterday). Pls refer to bottom section...basically, they have packaged most of the status quo position up as part of the "generous offer" for negotiation Hmm

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7894

On 26 June 2017, the UK Government published its offer for EU citizens in the UK, and UK nationals in the EU on their rights and status after the UK leaves the EU. It said:

  • the UK will continue to export and uprate the UK State Pension within the EU;
  • the UK will continue to aggregate periods of relevant insurance, work or residence within the EU accrued before exit to help meet the entitlement conditions for UK contributory benefits and State Pension, even where entitlement to these rights may be exercised after exit.

(my bold)

OlennasWimple · 27/06/2017 21:57

Thanks for another excellent thread

Glad you posted that ST article. I saw it shared elsewhere but didn't know the source- but I'm tickled that the European nuclear agency is called Euratom Smile

Sheffiedl · 27/06/2017 22:07

"The obvious thing is to harmonize upwards, so,every citizen has the right to access their pension in any E27 country or the UK"
Exactly, because when we paid taxes and NI contributions we did so knowing we had the freedom and right to retire anywhere in the EU.

woman12345 · 27/06/2017 22:13

LotisBlue Grin
and.........
(@Independent)
While Grenfell residents were denied safe cladding 'to save £5,000', the Queen was just given a £6m pay rise

Sheffiedl · 27/06/2017 22:15

Sorry post Divided. I guess that's good news in terms of pension at least?

Would British citizens get the same right? e.g Retire in Italy, if Italy would have them that is, and access their pension from within the EU?

I also wonder how EU citizens who have naturalised would be treated. Would they be treated as British citizens with no additional EU related rights or as British citizens with additional EU related rights due to the fact they were born abroad.

Madness.

Sheffiedl · 27/06/2017 22:15

*X-post

woman12345 · 27/06/2017 22:22

Glad if the pensions looks a bit more hopeful. What a mess.

I can see a political realignment on the cards

There is a huge electorally homeless liberal/small c conservative/green alliance, demographic, waiting to be asked to vote for this new party.

Wasn't Lucas excellent on the election debates?

The last election was just too desperate and odd to leave a space for the middle ground in any parties or electoral choices by the electorate, but there's always hope.

I predict:
the nutter rump of what's left of the tories. NR party.
JC Labour
and lib/green/con alliance of above, hopefully including some of the nationalist parties. Smile

Motheroffourdragons · 27/06/2017 22:28

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 27/06/2017 22:44

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Golondrina · 27/06/2017 22:50

placemarking

Peregrina · 27/06/2017 23:15

The last election was just too desperate and odd to leave a space for the middle ground in any parties or electoral choices by the electorate, but there's always hope.

I was in a seat where we managed to get the incumbent Tory out, overturning a 9,500 majority, with the seat going to the Lib Dem. It had been Lib Dem before. Labour has never done well here. But, it was very much a feeling of "Who has the best chance of defeating the Tories?", as much as anything because of a real fear that they would smash the Welfare State completely. It most certainly wasn't "What flavour of Brexit do we want" because we were, and still are a strongly Remain area.

As one who worked hard for the Lib Dem victory, obviously I hope that middle ground parties will gain seats again in future. I do feel there are huge numbers who are unrepresented, including moderate Tories - the sort who believed in serving their community. These are mostly elderly -75 plus now - but where have their children gone, and who speaks for them?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 23:21

Divided My partial German pension would be much more than my full UK one !

DividedKingdom · 27/06/2017 23:30

BigChoc I am blessed with a Dutch one as well as UK, so share your upside Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 23:31

DD in 2008:
“It is typical of this government to kickstart their misguided and intrusive ID scheme with students and foreigners, those who have no choice but to accept the cards,” Shock

Amazing the difference when someone is actually in office, doing far worse things than the Labour govt they criticized.

pain The govt keeps reminding me of the Nixon years and his spokesman Ronald Ziegler r:

"it's not not bombing; it's air support !" (wrt bombing in Vietnam War)

However, Tricky Dicky was far more intelligent than May or the contender swarm and he achieved some remarkable steps in detente, in between bugging everyone including himself