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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

OP posts:
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OlennasWimple · 27/06/2017 23:38

Cameron is caught up in the FIFA corruption scandal

I really do wonder how history will look back on him

OlennasWimple · 27/06/2017 23:40

Red just going back to your OP, why do you say arbitration doesn't normally apply to businesses and individuals?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2017 23:42

Sheffield I expect that the stream of not very well off pensioners to warmer EU climes will be seriously curtailed, except for those already resident when the Brexit cutoff date happens.
Even the comfortable mc non-resident will find it much tougher to get permission to retire in the E27.

The seriously wealthy of course will continue to be welcome in almost all EU and non-EU countries.

I thought naturalized citizens can't legally be 2nd class, but have to be treated the same as native born.
However, double citizenship would give the rights of both countries, which may be greater than either alone.

I may apply for German citizenship next year. My total years would add up - an easier qualification than May is proposing for UK residence, never mind citizenship.

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 23:50

OlennasWimple this thread is helpful in explaining courts v arbitration:

Raphael Hogarth‏ @Raphael_Hogarth
Yesterday we had the most detailed discussion yet, from a minister, on dispute resolution after #Brexit. Thread on DD’s Marr interview. 1/
ECJ was discussed in citizens’ rights context. I.e. EU cit in UK says in 2025 ‘I was promised more pension £ than this’. Who adjudicates? 2/
This is one of MANY areas where ECJ rears its head. See my @instituteforgov paper out today 3/
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publications/brexit-and-european-court-justice
Even under ‘dispute resolution’ is a range of poss post-Brexit disputes. Cits’ rights/divorce bill/regulatory alignment/other cooperation 4/
The naïve view says: either UK judges will always decide who is in the right, or there will be oversight from the ECJ. Not so. 5/
Marr raised a “third way” between ECJ jurisdiction and total autonomy for UK judges: a new court with judges from both sides. 6/

OP posts:
Somerville · 28/06/2017 00:09

Peregrina
I think your constituency might be the one I used to live in, and now neighbour.
I agree with your analysis, but would add an observation; that there are so many of the '3 million' in the constituency, due to science parks and the like, that many people know someone who was directly affected and very worried. This seems to me to have contributed (alongside anger at austerity) to that huge swing towards LDs.
As, actually, did the Greens not contesting the seat, and the campaign to get Labour voters in your constituency (if I'm right...) voting LD and LD's in the next door one (not mine unfortunately) voting Labour... I heard more people in the city talk about tactical voting, as you say, than ever before. I really hope the party leaderships think about the benefits of progressive alliances before the next election.

OlennasWimple · 28/06/2017 00:11

Thanks.

The only experience I have of arbitration is second-hand, and is completely about individuals and businesses. Under the contract that my husband's employees work to, if there is a dispute over a significant issue (eg disciplinary action) that cannot be resolved by mutual consent it can be taken to arbitration. This is a panel of three lawyers, typically one chosen by each side plus one on a rota allocation. It operates very much like a court, including that their decision is final.

Obviously the devil is in the detail but in principle this process could work

Peregrina · 28/06/2017 00:21

Somerville - Oxford West and Abingdon. Yes, we have the science parks and research establishments, a huge teaching hospital and the Mini i.e. BMW, factory - all likely to be hugely affected. Oxford East has always been Labour, but there was tactical voting there too with people not voting Green, just in case.

Somerville · 28/06/2017 00:30

That's it. Smile

Bernie Sander's brother standing for the Greens in Oxford East, wasn't it?! So people kept telling me, anyway.

mathanxiety · 28/06/2017 04:39

/// thanks once again RTB

Sostenueto · 28/06/2017 05:01

Peregrina your in lovely area! Was in Abingdon a couple of years ago on a painting course! (Waves)

Mistigri · 28/06/2017 06:09

The government seems to be tying itself in knots over the ECJ issue and I am not really clear why it is such a red line. Once you have acknowledged the need for supranational oversight (which DD seems to have done) I am not clear why the ECJ is considered a worse option than any other.

I know we don't have many leavers left on these threads but I would appreciate an explanation of why this is such a red line. It's not a sovereignty issue, because any supranational oversight involves loss of sovereignty.

EyeHalveASpellingChequer · 28/06/2017 06:52

It can be done locally and easily e.g. at local council office, as in Germany - no traveling hundreds of miles

Ideally you could do it online or by post. The whole system needs a big overhaul. The EEA(PR) application is 85 pages long! It also asks you to send in your WRS card if you worked in the UK before 2011 as a citizen of a country which joined the EU in 2004. Most people I know have thrown them away because they weren't needed, and the Home Office should have those details anyway.

frumpety · 28/06/2017 06:59

Thank you for another informative thread Red Flowers

HesterThrale · 28/06/2017 07:03

Placemat king.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 07:41

amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/chris-lord-patten-craven-britain-demeaned-china-brexit-craven-worse

Chris Patten: A craven Britain has demeaned itself with China, Brexit will make it worse

Peregrina · 28/06/2017 08:00

Bernie Sander's brother standing for the Greens in Oxford East, wasn't it?!

Yes.

Grifone · 28/06/2017 08:07

From yesterday's Daily Mail. Nice bit of offensive stereotyping here.

twitter.com/billybragg/status/879653121106096128

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 08:12

British Attitudes Survey: More Britons 'back higher taxes

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40408576

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 08:15

Grifone I hope there are group actions to sue on breaches of the Equalities Act once tories are destroyed.

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 08:19

More Britons 'back higher taxes
May is doing no harm to labour, probably liberal and SNP polling.

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 08:20

What the govt don't want - consumer protection with teeth:

"Google has been fined a record €2.42 billion by Brussels for abusing its dominant position as a search engine in favour of its own products"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/google-is-fined-2-42bn-for-abusing-dominance-pfcqltfql

That investigation was instigated and led by the competition commissioner - the UK will badly needs one after Brexit

Somerville · 28/06/2017 08:20

So, overt anti-Irish prejudice resulting from a dodgy deal... by the DUP. That's offensive on so many levels.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 08:28

Speaking at the Times CEO summit, former RoI PM Enda Kelly:

“Of course, as democrats, we accepted the decision of the UK electorate – even if it was by a narrow margin.
But as friends, and as family, we wondered when the people had spoken about taking their country back, whether they were really asked often enough:

OK, by how many years do you want to take it back?
And back to what?

“On television we saw many decrying what they called ‘all of the immigration’.
And some did so in pure Irish accents.”
......
But he said he was unclear on Theresa May’s Brexit strategy.

“Generally you’ve got a better chance of getting some of what you want, if you know what you want,”**

“And it’s much the same attitude with ‘Brexit means Brexit’
as if by declaration or by telepathy, we are all supposed to know what Brexit means, and that we know precisely and intimately, even innately.

The fact is: we do not.
We have little idea
– and as politicians we have to have the honesty and humility to say that.”

woman12345 · 28/06/2017 08:35

That's offensive on so many levels yep. Everyday a new thread to the foetid tapestry of racism the ukip/tories/press weave.

Fortunately for future reference it's recorded.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 08:36

It must grate on Irish people to see Tory tabloids continually pushing the offensive drunken stereotype

  • particularly as across Europe it is the drunken English visitors who have wreaked havoc, not the Irish.

Of course Tory tabloids are disgraceful for continual denigrating BME folk, anyone they class as non-English, really. Even the Scots get hammered whenever they dare protest.