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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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Thread gallery
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Mrsmartell08 · 28/06/2017 11:39

There are a few schools round there that finish at 2.40pm

lalalonglegs · 28/06/2017 11:39

Best not to write anything about Hillsborough then other than to say I'm pleased that the CPS is going ahead with this.

On schools: my children will be at three different schools come September, all are losing money, between £680 and £924 per pupil. My older daughter's school this year added an hour to the school day because of the demands of the new curriculum and are now having to revert to the old timetable to save money. It has not been explained how they will cope with the new curriculum under the shortened day. My son's school is asking for a direct debit to be set up to fund unspecified "extras" (I suspect, quite necessary areas of teaching). The schools are all brilliant but they can't run on fumes, it makes me so angry.

VulvalHeadMistress · 28/06/2017 11:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PattyPenguin · 28/06/2017 11:48

That can include any kind of publication about the case.

What about the BBC, the Guardian, Reuters et al?

Isn't it acceptable to publish facts (who is being prosecuted, with what)?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 28/06/2017 11:52

This is about Hillsborough but the legal process of getting an inquest rather than the case itself:

David Allen Green @davidallengreen

  1. The Human Rights Act was crucial to the second inquest being held on Hillsborough:
  2. Next time you see knocking copy on Human Rights Act, or a politician wanting to repeal it, remind yourself - and them - of this.
  3. If the Tories and some tabloids had had their way, the HRA would be repealed, and no legal basis for second Hillsborough inquest.

/ends

DividedKingdom · 28/06/2017 11:53

Vulva, can you be a bit more specific then maybe I can help. Are you referring to private or state? what is the final destination (retirement) country?

(Btw the new QPROPS 25% charge only applies to transfer destination outside EEA, and this rule is not (superficially) a result of Brexit).

BigChocFrenzy · 28/06/2017 12:11

Pain That's an example of why theTories want the HRA scrapped
Murdoch too - he must be fuming that the behaviour of the Sun looks even scummier now
They very belatedly apologized in 2012, but he hasn't afaik for making them somscummy.

ElenaGreco123 · 28/06/2017 12:19

the Sun looks even scummier now
Impossible.

LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 12:23

the Sun looks even scummier now

Impossible

You realise they'll take that as a challenge ?

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 12:35

rightsinfo.org/human-rights-rich/
Are Human Rights Only For The Rich?

Topical piece today from Rights Info.

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RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 12:40

May said at PMQ that cladding on buildings started under Blair with regulations being relaxed in 2006.

Conservatives don't like the link between austerity and Grenfell and this is trying to stop that.

Robert Peston‏*@Peston*

I'm not sure @theresa_may plea to depoliticise Grenfell response will work, because @jeremycorbyn hates Blair government more than she does

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ElenaGreco123 · 28/06/2017 13:17

Oh, no lh

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 13:23

Jessica Elgot‏*@jessicaelgot*
NEW: Number 10 sources indicate 1% public sector pay cap will be rethought - "we have heard message from electorate."

What is that sprouting out of the wall of No. 10 Downing Street.

Lo! Behold!

A Magic Money Tree!

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LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 13:40

Jessica Elgot‏*@jessicaelgot* NEW: Number 10 sources indicate 1% public sector pay cap will be rethought - "we have heard message from electorate."

How many DUPs is that going to cost ?

(I take it we're all cynical enough to imagine that the "rethinking" will result in the same outcome ?)

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 13:45

Gross negligence manslaughter is a form of involuntary manslaughter where the defendant is ostensibly acting lawfully. Involuntary manslaughter may arise where the defendant has caused death but neither intended to cause death nor intended to cause serious bodily harm and thus lacks the mens rea of murder. Whereas constructive manslaughter exists where the defendant commits an unlawful act which results in death, gross negligence manslaughter is not dependant on demonstrating an unlawful act has been committed. Gross negligence manslaughter can be said to apply where the defendant commits a lawful actin such a way as to render the actions criminal. Gross negligence manslaughter also differs from constructive manslaughter in that it can be committed by omission.

Get familiar with this charge. Its potentially highly relevant to Grenfell. Potentially relevant to other future (and maybe even past) scandals that might be put down to austerity / poor management.

The decision to pursue a charge of it for Hillsborough sets a precedent in saying it is in the public interest to even try and get a prosecution. Even if there is ultimately an acquittal its still important. Also see charges made relating to misconduct in public office.

The charge requires a significant level of evidence to prove it.

If you ever come across something like this, this is why making complaints are NEVER unimportant and any information / evidence you can keep may be helpful in building up a bigger picture.

I do think that 'events' may appear because of an unravelling of public services which leaves the potential for this to occur more frequently much higher than in the past.

Public knowledge of the charge is in itself a protection to stopping similar incidents by reminding everyone that there is a public duty to ensuring the safety of others even if there is no direct law.

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OlennasWimple · 28/06/2017 13:47

Schools here all finish early on Fridays (and I understand it's commonplace across the US), and I know of schools in England with a large Muslim population who also close early on Fridays to facilitate prayers.

Presumably schools that think this will save money are closing up the minute that the bell goes (otherwise there are minimal savings on heating and electricity). I don't see how it helps with a teacher shortage though,: surely it would need to be a rolling closure in order to spread teaching staff more thinly? Otherwise the school is saying that they have sufficient staff for the majority of the time but can't afford full time teachers. So full time teachers will be moved to new 9/10 contracts? Or will teachers be paid but have no teaching time?

Is there something obvious I'm missing here....?

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 13:52

Alex Barker‏*@alexebarker*
1/ What do the EU think of the UK's citizen rights offer? Here's the confidential assessment (thread)
2/ It is taken from a Commission table presented to member states that compares the EU position to UK offer
3/ Their general conclusion: lack of clarity on definitions that based on UK law, rather than existing EU rules
4/ No reciprocity. UK law for EU citizens in Britain; while Brits in EU get more favourable EU law
5/ No legal certainty (rights decided by UK); no lifelong protection against UK law changes; and no ECJ to protect rights directly
6/ There is then line by line analysis. Some points that stood out:
7/ They note the UK offer suggests citizen rights will stem from UK law, rather than the Article 50 agreement. That increases uncertainty
8/ They question how UK will apply eligibility for "settled status" and assess "continuously resident" and "conduct & criminality"
9/ That in turn underlines worry about admin procedures, and where the burden of evidence really lies
10/ The EU wanted ALL past/present UK residents covered. UK excludes them & "frontier workers" who commute cross-border
11/ Issues are raised over family members inc. need for children to apply, and future family being covered by stricter UK immigration rules
12/ Clear EU demand for life-long guarantees so EU nationals won't see status changed in decades to come, and can leave/return
13/ On range of rights, they dislike curbs on post-Brexit social security rights, which eg stop new claims/export of child benefit
14/ Also question tougher expulsion measures (EU law requires indiv assessments) and tighter rules for non-EU family reunion
15/ Reciprocity comes up several times. EU offer clearly better for UK citizens than Brits give EU citizens in UK
16/ Leaves EU with dilemma: legislate to narrow rights of Brits living in EU, or be generous and ignore UK shortcomings

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teaandbiscuitsforme · 28/06/2017 13:54

Olennas Teachers are entitled to 10% of their timetable for planning, preparation and assessment time. In secondary schools, this is managed through free lessons throughout the week. In primary schools, you are normally given a morning or afternoon when somebody else teaches your class. The ideal would be that the school appoints a teacher who covers all the non-contact time. By closing on a Friday afternoon, the teachers are getting their non-contact time but there is no need to employ that additional teacher (or TA/sports coach as it has turned into to save money). In secondary schools, they will work a compressed week and have their non-contact on a Friday afternoon too but have less frees throughout the week so less teachers needed.

The state of education is truly shocking at the moment.

DividedKingdom · 28/06/2017 14:00

17/ Or option 3: tell the UK to sort itself out and stop behaving like a bunch of evil twats

teaandbiscuitsforme · 28/06/2017 14:01

Also schools wouldn't have to pay support staff during those Friday pm hours and cleaning could be done then rather than after school saving building costs.

LemonSalad · 28/06/2017 14:04

Alex Barker‏*@alexebarker*
16/ Leaves EU with dilemma: legislate to narrow rights of Brits living in EU, or be generous and ignore UK shortcomings

Or do neither of those and just tell the UK to fuck off that this oh so generous offer really isn't good enough?!

LemonSalad · 28/06/2017 14:04

Cross-posted with Divided, sorry.

RedToothBrush · 28/06/2017 14:12

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/28/immigration-detainees-legal-challenge-slave-wages?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Immigration detainees bring legal challenge against £1 an hour 'slave' wages
Lawyers for 10 people held in UK centres want Home Office to raise minimum pay for voluntary but ‘essential’ work by detainees

Ten people detained in UK immigration centres have launched a legal challenge against the Home Office for paying them “slave labour” wages of £1 per hour.

The detainees, from countries including Nigeria, Jamaica and Poland, are not covered by minimum wage legislation even though, unlike prisoners, they have committed no crime.

The Home Office says the menial work is provided on a voluntary basis to meet their “recreational and intellectual” needs and provide “relief from boredom”.

Lawyers for the detainees have lodged initial legal proceedings known as a pre-action protocol. The Home Office, pointing out that the work is optional, has rejected the points raised but said it would review the rates of pay.

Any change would be a significant departure from the existing Home Office position. An internal document on pay rates seen by the Guardian said £1 an hour “seems high” and ministers agreed to pay it “reluctantly”.

Wow. Just wow.

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LurkingHusband · 28/06/2017 14:16

The detainees, from countries including Nigeria, Jamaica and Poland, are not covered by minimum wage legislation even though, unlike prisoners, they have committed no crime.

Sounds like the UK-Saudi Arabia relationship is a two way things. They get arms (possibly without hands ?) and we get advice on modern-day slavery from the experts.

We should be grateful. I imagine other countries have had to pay a few hundredths of a DUP to get that !