Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 17:50

New research (full report can be downloaded from the bottom of the page) suggests that the shortfall is largely the result of "missing movers" - mortgaged home-owners not moving up the housing ladder

We're probably going to die here. Given MrsLHs MS and use of a wheelchair, a 1,400 sq. ft bungalow within wheelchair ride of doctor, pharmacy, local stores and bus stops; with 3 hospitals within 4 miles
is going to be impossible to top.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 17:50

Which he can sue for. Unless the people who did give him legal advice sue him first for reputational damage.

Boy would I like to see either of those legal battles in court.

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 30/06/2017 17:54

"Bad legal advice" normally = "asked the wrong question of the lawyers"

LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 17:55

Boy would I like to see either of those legal battles in court.

They can only happen if things are as claimed ... I think it's a reasonable assumption that if neither happens, the underlying facts are open to interpretation.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 18:01

Like wrongttrouser, I have also been offended by the sexually abusive cartoons of May.
I consider her incompetent, heartless and xenophobic, but that is no excuse for mainstream papers to have blatantly sexist and sexually humiliating depictions of her.

That is going backwards socially, pandering to the violent misogynist fantasies of author and readers.

We didn't see cartoons of Blair being sodomised while he was poodling to Bush, at least not in the mainstream media.

I happily enjoy cartoons of May with a distorted nose, or in a clown suit and that is typical of what all politicians should reasonably accept, imo.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 18:03

Horrific acid attack on Muslim man & woman

Life-changing, painful injuries:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/30/acid-attack-victim-says-he-and-cousin-targeted-because-they-are-muslim-beckton-london

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 18:05

AARGH , no ! PM Mogg ?
Mogg Mania is apparently a thing Hmm < baffled >:

https://reaction.life/moggmania-antidote-corbynmania/

And another dreadful leadership contender:

https://reaction.life/unite-britain-make-andrea-leadsom-tory-leader/

"Making Andrea Leadsom Tory leader and Prime Minister was a truly terrible idea a year ago when the country had not heard of her.
It is an even worse idea now that Leadsom is widely known."

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 18:13

Life-changing, painful injuries
A terrorist crime, for which no arrests.
Heartbreaking interview, be warned, but kudos for channel 4 for running it: BigChoc :
www.channel4.com/news/acid-attack-on-two-people-in-east-london-was-it-a-hate-crime

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 18:18

We didn't see cartoons of Blair being sodomised
And agree, like red said up thread. Decorum is what we got. Let's not lose that too. I remember defending Shock Thatcher to a family friend (politics professor at the university) in Glasgow on grounds of gender and xenophobia. Imagine........

They're using May as a lightning conductor, and the gendered nature of that is well known.

OlennasWimple · 30/06/2017 18:18

Not all hate crimes are terrorist attacks, woman

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 18:20

White couple, acid attack by moslem man? Oleannaswimple

LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 18:20

Decorum is what we got. Let's not lose that too.

Did anyone else catch the news of the Republican party practically begging Trump to stop tweeting ?

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 18:22

Good assessment of Tories, Corbyn, especially LDems:

https://reaction.life/british-voters-blame-everything/

Tories,^^ when freed from electoral constraints, govern overwhelmingly in the interests of the wealthy and the aspiring middle classes, whom they regard as the twin engines of the economy.

They can apply austerity for as long as it takes because they know it will not apply to them.

They wish the workers and their families well, and would not see them starve.
But they do not regard them as their natural constituency.”

Corbyn regards Brexit as a monumental distraction.
He has no interest in Europe just as he has no interest in America or East-West conflict.
All of these are alien to him.
......
he is like Pasha Antipov, the earnest young Bolshevik played by Tom Courtenay in the movie version of Doctor Zhivago.
His youthful ideals have long-since calcified into a rigid belief system.
....
Nye Bevin would have had him put down.”

Lib Dems ...

With just 12 MPs, they are like the lettuce leaves that are sometimes added to a cheesburger in a bid to make it look healthy GrinGrin

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 18:27

Go fund me for the couple:

www.gofundme.com/21stbirthdayacidattack
John Tomlin, who police would like to question re this attack:

A Facebook page appearing to belong to Tomlin, who has a partner and young daughter, contains posts using language linked to the far-right.

A sleeping lion can only be provoked so much before it wakes up and attacks…and so will us British,” reads one post shared in 2015

We will stand and we will fight. We will reclaim what is rightfully ours. We will not surrender

Police warned of the public not to approach Tomlin, who has distinctive face tattoos of a dagger and tears, but dial 999 immediately if he is seen

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslim-man-acid-attack-victim-why-not-terror-attack-east-london-jameel-muhktar-resham-khan-21st-a7816331.html

Watching what that poor man is going through having acid injuries, seems pretty terror inducing. The torykips and DUP here don't make me feel too comfortable either.

Cailleach1 · 30/06/2017 19:01

What a horrible thing to do to someone. It is such a cowardly thing, too.

BiglyBadgers · 30/06/2017 19:02

Irritated by Paterson's glib 'oh there are more Polish speakers than Irish speakers in NI'. Of course, he has nothing to offer on the discussion about the support and preservation of Irish in it's homeland, beyond a glib comment.

Particularly glib considering the reason there are so few Irish speakers in Ireland is because the British actively suppressed the language since the 19th century. It didn't just die out on its own FFS Hmm

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 19:16

Yep. bigly certain type makes those sort of comments.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 20:26

When making major decisions like Brexit, one needs to look at longterm immigration patterns - which are cyclic

EU mmigration became such an issue because people expected it would forever continue as net immigration into the UK.

However, economic cycles and poorer EU countries becoming richer, like the RoI has done and like Poland looks like doing, have changed emigration / immigration patterns before and will do so again in the future.

The UK used to be the country that couldn't provide jobs for its workers, e.g. like pp reminded us "Auf wiedershen Pet" - not just manual jobs:
I started my first contract in Germany in 1987 because scientific opportunities were limited in the UK, but plentiful in Germany (that never changed)

DD and May are trying to cut off the FOM that a future generation of jobless Brits may need desperately
My point about short term thinking is better explained here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/30/eu-states-examine-whether-uk-likely-reverse-brexit

An Ambassador from a country close to the UK (RoI ?) said he believed Whitehall departments were still coming to terms with the scale of the administrative tasks facing civil servants once outside the EU.

“The tragedy is that the issue that set all this off may be solved by the time the UK comes to Brexit.

There is a good chance the UK economy is heading for a quite nasty downturn due to its reliance on financial services,

just as the EU is on an upturn,

so the Poles that came to the UK will either stay at home or be going to elsewhere like Germany,

and the numbers of migrants coming to the UK will be below 100,000.”
< i..e the tens of thousands that May wants wrt E27 immigrants >

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 20:41

This is how being serious about tackling online hate speech looks !

Delete Hate Speech or Pay Up, Germany Tells Social Media Companies

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/business/germany-facebook-google-twitter.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Feurope

" Social media companies operating in Germany face fines of as much as $57 million if they do not delete illegal, racist or slanderous comments and posts within 24 hours under a law passed on Friday."

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 20:45

This is how being serious about tackling online hate speech looks
And why not in britain? Because they're in government.

Somerville · 30/06/2017 20:59

On the subject of Gaeilge... the statements (from SF, then DUP, then another hasty one from SF) today seem depressing. Irish language act/marriage equality on one side, and Military covenant on the other. I'll be shocked if they make a deal by Monday - they sound a million miles apart. (I've been shocked before, mind.)

So what will Brokenshire do then? I'm hoping he wouldn't be stupid enough to implement direct rule, with DUP in ascendancy in Westminster, and marching season beginning shortly...

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 21:00

Pointythings am in Suffolk too but tech college in Norwich not Ipswich. DD told me only dgs class got letter so don't know quite what's going on?

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 21:09

Head of Kensington council and the deputy have resigned and the head of the managing company in charge if Grenfell. Sounds all a bit suspicious to me. I'd be asking where the £350,000 is that the council saved on the cladding and the money saved by using cowboy builders for the internal refurb which also contributed to the fire at Grenfell that the management company saved.

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 21:11

I really smell something fishy here. Like to see complete breakdown of just where that ten and a half million really went!

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 21:37

"So what will Brokenshire do then? I'm hoping he wouldn't be stupid enough to ..."

Unfortunately, he is a singularly stupid, incompetent and ignorant minister in a Cabinet of similar dreck

None of those in the current Tory Cabinet - or May - would have got into MrsT's cabinet;
most would not even have survived being junior ministers before the cement handbag knocked them out.
Maybe Hammond would have been given a backroom type ministership; no one else really.

Swipe left for the next trending thread