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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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Cailleach1 · 30/06/2017 15:38

Er, No Patty. He was saying they would take off the tariffs for foodstuffs such as ground coffee. Said households would be 300 pounds better off with these cheaper imports. They would then sell lots of Whisky to India 'cos India would take off the tariffs. I'm not so sure India itself wants to do that, or if possible under WTO at the mo. No mention of the visa's wanted by a country with over a billion people. Who have said talk to the hand about the other stuff unless there are visa relaxations. They have a huge service industry too. They won't want to undermine that in favour of UK.

Then he talks about having a very competitive industry. Wheat per acre. Don't know how he would stop the world putting the 35% tariffs on that. He says not allowed to embrace modern technologies by EU, so wants to get rid of precautionary principle. I'm sure that UK products will sell like hot cakes, at higher prices abroad, stuffed full of chemicals. That will give it a premium market, I'm sure. He says go full intensive to free up land for recreation. Poor animals. Thing about intensive is it is the law of diminishing returns. Stuff it full of chemicals and eventually no extra will improve production as land becomes depleted. Not a sustainable situation. Bit confused as he mentions the old faithful New Zealand and Switzerland. NZ took away subsidies and Switzerland have subsidies. Of course, NZ lamb will be without tariffs, so cheaper competition. Still talking about flora, fauna, diversity and water quality in the same breath as this intensive stuff. Don't sweat the small details, it will be brilliant. Massive opportunity to export as world population will rise by 2 billion. Never mind the tariffs they'll plonk on it. And China will want the meat products. That is why they have to leave customs Union to negotiate those trade deals. Now,he didn't mention they don't need to negotiate at all as they will simply unilaterally continue with EU deals when no longer in the EU. How does that work? If not in a trade agreement, you can't treat other countries differently. so it is tariff or tariff free for everyone. And it won't be an EU deal. Doesn't mention the wonder deal Switzerland has with China who has it hugely in China's favour.

"The Commission is furious with us as they will be 10 billion short." Brilliant projection of what Owen wants. Good man, Owen. You don't need to worry about the 10 billion from the EU's perspective. Worry about the multiples of this which will be lost in trade revenue and might be a windfall for the EU. Of course, you're not on your own. Austria, Netherlands, Italy and France. Oh wait, cut that.

I doubt they need to include arms. The export of weapons etc is already doing brilliantly in the middle east. Used to kill many Yemenis and contribute to a situation where hundreds of thousands of people (including children and babies) are at risk in a cholera epidemic. Erdogan happy too with his deal

Mind you I am behind the times with Liam Fox. Haven't heard his next iron clad promise since (as part of leave campaign) he said 350 million extra could go to NHS after Brexit. I would not dispute you could take him at his word.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 15:47

A thread on the media and local newspapers

Jane Merrick‏ @janemerrick23
On the face of it, it's been another troubling week for journalism and the ability of journalists to do their jobs properly. 1/?
K&C council ban journalists from attending a council meeting, then shut it down when the High Court rules media should attend. 2/
The editor of a fake news disseminating website gets prime time platform on #bbcqt. In the US, the White House bans video of press briefings
But wait. I don't know whether anyone at the Canary did their NCTJ but thousands of MSM journalists did. And here's the wonderful thing:
One of the things you learn in journalism training is the importance of being able to attend council meetings. It's our bread and butter.
It's not only bread & butter, it's enshrined in law. Look up Local Government (Access to Information) Act 1985. We have a right to be there
Another thing you learn in journalism training is media law. Contempt of Court Act. Section 39 orders. How to challenge authorities when they try to flout the law and ban the press. Just like K&C council trying to ban journalists from a council meeting.
That sacred principle of defending the press under law was there yesterday when media organisations went to the High Court to challenge K&C
Yes, there are exemptions to the 1985 act. But the High Court, rightly, over-ruled the council. The law is there to protect us.
When I say "us" I don't just mean journalists but all of us. Media - the clue in the name - are there for the public, to get you the facts to report on what is going on at K&C in the aftermath of Grenfell. To be able to do our jobs unimpeded without draconian council leaders and to do this without the smoke and mirrors of fake news, conspiracy and pure made-up bullshit.
Because when we are unable to do our jobs properly, the public is left in the dark and things are covered up, scandals deepen.
So far from it being a bad week for journalism, anyone who cares about a free press should be optimistic something as basic & old-fashioned as the right to report on a council meeting was defended by proper journalists & upheld by the High Court
Thread ends.

Steve Fearon‏ @ScreamingStatic

The problem is that Journalism has largely rejected fact reporting for opinion/agenda based coverage, hence the shift towards 'small' media
Its all very well talking about fairness, and the role of the media, but the quality of reporting has been dropping for years
Like politics, the general public now has such a low opinion of 'journalistic integrity' that you are all tarred with the same brush.

Damien‏ @goal_media

Agree wholeheartedly. But unsure why more of MSM aren't laying bare the lie meeting could have prejudiced judge-led inquiry.

Also leading on from that thread and replies:

David Allen Green‏ @davidallengreen

It is not credible that @RBKC received the legal advice described in this notice:
www.rbkc.gov.uk/newsroom/all-council-statements/council-statement-following-cabinet-meeting-29-june

Something is false here.

As @RBKC has described legal advice received, they should waive privilege and publish this advice.

As described, makes no legal sense.

As the proposed inquiry does not even yet have terms of reference, impossible to advise how that inquiry could be "prejudiced".

Utter tosh.

Claire Maugham‏ @clairemaugham
as a cllr I experienced LA officers asserting 'legal privilege' as a reason they could not share counsel's opinion for scrutiny purposes

David Allen Green‏ @davidallengreen

Quite.

(((Robin Levett)))‏ @Roblev0
In any event, a meeting from which the public is excluded for reasons of potential disorder remains a meeting which should be fully...1/n
...minuted and the minutes disclosed as a public record. No LGA exemptions were claimed to prevent publication...2/2

James O'Brien‏ @mrjamesob
Really struggling to see how a Public Inquiry could possibly be 'prejudiced' by holding a council meeting with journalists present.

David Allen Green‏ @davidallengreen
No struggling required. It cannot be.

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Cailleach1 · 30/06/2017 15:51

They put these people on screen on their own. It is just a soapbox without any expert checks. I think this is part of the problem with coverage since before referendum. Shysters just get on and talk sh*te and it is put out there as a fact. I bet Andrea was pissed she was put on J O'Brien with Lamy. Mind you, that didn't stop her trying to tell her grandmother how to suck eggs.

I have said it quite a few times, but was blown away by a Daily politics programme where Farage said you could unilaterally slap on big tariffs to some EU goods. Must have gone with this a few times as Neil said under WTO you can't treat a country differently if you are not in a trade agreement with them. Did he blush, and admit he was just bullshitting and didn't even know what the hell he talking about and was saying anything to get people to vote to leave the EU? Heck he didn't even drop a beat. Just said "oh, we can do this then". Don't know if that was allowed either.

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 15:51

Sorry folks meant the verbal non verbal paper not critical thinking lol but you all knew what I meant! Thanks woman12345 she will as long as she can cope with the stress. We have one more week of mocks then we can breathe a bit till December when mocks once again then real thing next may.

LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 15:55

"The Commission is furious with us as they will be 10 billion short."

That's 10 DUPs. Chump change, really.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 15:57

Hey look another Government Minister spouting bollocks. This time David Lidington the justice secretary saying the tenants of Grenfell saying they could have got legal aid.

He's one of those dreaded experts saying what the reality is:
nearlylegal.co.uk/2017/06/legal-aid-rights-wrongs-lord-chancellor/

God if some of these people actually had a clue what they were talking about, they might be AMAZING politicians.

Sadly, they all seem to know precisely the sum total of fuck all.

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woman12345 · 30/06/2017 15:57

swap?

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 16:17

www.politico.eu/article/uk-economy-officially-eus-worst-performer/
UK economy officially EU’s worst performer
Business services and construction drove economic growth, but consumer-focused industries slowed it down.

The figures released on Friday confirmed that Britain is currently the worst performing major economy in the world and among the EU28.

YAY! Brexit!

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woman12345 · 30/06/2017 16:17

Swap was wrt: That's 10 DUPs. Chump change, really

Imagine if, post 9/11, survivors were being treated as K&C and gov have treated the people of Grenfell.

The press exclusion, that David Lidington the justice secretary saying the tenants of Grenfell saying they could have got legal aid , all intimates a lack of accountability and genuine care, that in another country at another time would seem impossible.

Peregrina · 30/06/2017 16:40

If you haven't already seen it here is Liam Fox and the magic money tree.

LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 16:44

If you haven't already seen it here is Liam Fox and the magic money tree.

(drifting OT ...)

QT went downhill when it went from 4 to 5 guests ... seems to have been caught up in the modern assumption that quantity=quality ...

howabout · 30/06/2017 16:47

Otoh Red GDP per head in the UK is barely above 2008 levels despite years of headline outperformance of total GDP against Eurozone.

DividedKingdom · 30/06/2017 16:59

The figures released on Friday confirmed that Britain is currently the worst performing major economy in the world and among the EU28.

Can we start calling ourselves the Sick Man of Europe again, yet? Too soon? Hurrah for the seventies and the good old days, anyway! Smile

OlennasWimple · 30/06/2017 17:10

Man charged with making false claims that he lost his family in Grenfell and fraudulently receiving charity cash intended for survivors of the fire

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 17:11

www.france24.com/en/20170630-france-national-front-leader-marine-le-pen-charged-european-union-funding-scandal?ref=tw_i
Marine Le Pen put under formal investigation over EU funding scandal

Prosecutors placed French far-right leader Marine Le Pen under formal investigation on Friday as part of a probe into the alleged misuse of European Union funds to pay parliamentary assistants.

and

The European Parliament believes the money went to National Front employees working for the party in France rather than those working for the party's lawmakers in Brussels.

Exact same thing as UKIP.

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RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 17:20

order-order.com/2017/06/30/data-gov-uk-exposes-user-names-passwords/
Data.Gov.UK Exposes Users’ Names & Passwords in Massive Data Breach

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Artisanjam · 30/06/2017 17:24

Nick paget brown of Kensington and Chelsea council has just resigned according to the BBC. I wonder how much pressure was put on him and who by.

LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 17:32

Data.Gov.UK Exposes Users’ Names & Passwords in Massive Data Breach

Well, there is a "y" in the day.

Covered here

Generally a reminder to never reuse passwords, and wherever possible enable 2FA.

Speaking of government data, I see that Liberty have won the right to challenge the current obsession with collecting everything

www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/30/liberty_gets_green_light_to_challenge_snoopers_charter/

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 17:34

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

K&C council leader Nick Paget-Brown resigns, blaming bad "legal advice" for locking out press/public. He can't even resign with humility.

Really? REALLY!?

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pointythings · 30/06/2017 17:37

sos interesting that in your area only the so-called low achieving kids (hate that terminology) got that letter touting the technical college. Here in Suffolk everyone in yr 9 got it. DD2 got one, she is in the top 5% and very academic. The impression I got was that they were desperate to fill places. It's in Ipswich, a cool 30 miles from us. Yeah, not going to happen.

I am not opposed to selective education per se - the Dutch system is selective. But you have to value technical and vocational education properly, the way it's done in a lot of other places in Europe, and there has to be flexibility for late developers to move onward and upward. The grammar system in the UK strikes me as stifling opportunity, not promoting it.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 17:37

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-chairman-deselected_uk_59562e36e4b0da2c7322c70f?

Labour is “too broad a church” and the current crop of MPs must “work very hard” to avoid deselection, the party’s new chairman has said.

Ian Lavery told HuffPost UK that Labour will also fund an army of new “community champions” to organise at a constituency level, as the leadership eyes sweeping changes to the party’s power structure.

Code for: Lets shoot ourselves not in the foot but just straight in the head.

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LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 17:42

K&C council leader Nick Paget-Brown resigns, blaming bad "legal advice" for locking out press/public.

Which he can sue for. Unless the people who did give him legal advice sue him first for reputational damage.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 17:46

Neal Hudson‏*@resi*_analyst
The housing ladder only worked because of the unique economic conditions of the late 20th century. It's now broken and unlikely to recover.
That's the 140 character summary of our new report

www.cml.org.uk/news/press-releases/where-have-all-the-movers-gone/
Where have all the movers gone?
by Council of Mortgage Lenders

New research (full report can be downloaded from the bottom of the page) suggests that the shortfall is largely the result of "missing movers" - mortgaged home-owners not moving up the housing ladder.

and

Three factors determine the moving rate among this groups - their desire to move, sufficient funds, and the availability of a home they want to buy. Of these three factors, the research suggests that the availability of sufficient funds - specifically, sufficient equity - is the dominant factor holding back the mortgaged mover rate.

Been saying this for a while. DH and I are in this situation.

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LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 17:46

I guess I am the exemplar floating voter, having voted for every mainstream party (including the SDP) since I could vote.

Labour only got my vote as a tactical measure to prevent a Tory landslide. I have no ideological reason to vote Labour next time.

If everyone voted like me, UK politics might actually work. It's the deadwood of lifelong Tory/Labour voters who clog up things.

I cringe when I hear people saying they "always vote Labour" or "always vote Tory", and then wonder why they are ignored.

It's a little like insurance. You have to shop around to get the best deal. If you stick with one company all your life, you will be shafted.

Cailleach1 · 30/06/2017 17:49

Yes, Red. Saw that, it is the same as UKIP. Yet, before the GE, Suzanne Evans was on daily politics and asked to comment about the Con's suspected contravention of spending rules. Not a whiff of their own bit of alleged dodgy goings on.

I won't mention it any more (I promise) but have to point out one great contradiction in Paterson's guff. In contrast to the cheer for intensification of farming, he was cheering the NZ sheep farming issues. They had a huge problem with overgrazing by sheep. He said they were in such bad condition they made fertiliser from some of them. Then they withdrew subsidies and there was less sheep farming. Overgrazing issue resolved and better quality animals. How does this lie with his cheering for more intensive farming. Now, I think I have vented it all.

Irritated by Paterson's glib 'oh there are more Polish speakers than Irish speakers in NI'. Of course, he has nothing to offer on the discussion about the support and preservation of Irish in it's homeland, beyond a glib comment. Does he also sneer in this way about Welsh? To say it is about the highest number of speakers is just culturally illiterate and ignorant. To know the value of nothing. Wales have done Wonders with Welsh. More people speak English than Welsh in Wales. Even more before their drive to support and promote Welsh. Irish is the only indigenous language originating from the island of Ireland. Full stop. English may now be the day to day language of most people, but it is an adopted language. As is Scots outside of it's homeland. Irish/Gaeilge is critically endangered and that is why it needs to be supported in it's only homeland. I'm sure Poland can look after Polish. My mother didn't learn any English until she went to school. First generation from her family in millenia to adopt English rather than her native Irish as her day to day language when she moved to an English speaking area.

If it about numbers, lets all learn Chinese. I'm sure there are places in England where other languages are spoken more widely. Then why don't you stop putting anything in English in those areas.

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